--- In [email protected], "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: <snip> > Science succeeds or fails as a public enterprise. Its conventions > are agreed to by all. Like the justice system, it is as flawed as > the people who practice it; science sometimes fails in the same way > that justice sometimes fails. However, its only chance for success > is that people continue to participate in good faith. > > The movement and Markovsky have fallen into an adverasarial > relationship. However, I do not see how this invalidates my central > argument.
It doesn't, of course, nor did I suggest it did. I *agree* with your central argument. I simply note that there may be cases in which good faith can be a pitfall rather than a benefit (as you seem to concede when you say the enterprise sometimes fails) when hostile researchers who are not acting in good faith are involved. My *only* point has been that the fact that the TM researchers refused to give their data to Markovsky does not automatically mean they had something to hide, contrary to what you had suggested. They had good reason to fear that if they gave Markovsky the full details of their research, he would do them and the cause of TM, as well as the perceived promise of the Maharishi Effect, serious damage by essentially misrepresenting their work. They may *also* have had something to hide; I have no way of knowing that. However, they had been cooperating with him before they realized he had been out to do them damage from the start. And they handed Markovsky, if not a gun, at least a cream pie to throw at them by withholding the data, exactly because of the way it would be interpreted. It could not have been a pleasant choice. > The data themselves are the sine qua non of the public aspect of > science. People canand doargue about how the data are processed, > manipulated, etc, but that argument is part of the public process > of science. The underlying facts, the data themselves have to be > open to verification. Yes. And as I said, if a fair-minded researcher had asked to see the data and the TM researchers had refused, it would be unequivocally damning. > > In my experience and observation, the movement does not really care > about science. There are of course, some scientists in the movement > who do, and who struggle to maintain their professional integrity, > but the integrity of science itself is not considered important > in comparison with the agenda of furthering the movement's aims. Unfortunately true, because the good is dismissed along with the bad. This is widely > perceived within and without the movement, and is just one reason why this discussion is > moot. > > While I do understand the position you have taken, and the > arguments in support of it, nevertheless it reminds me slightly > about the controversy over torturing prisoners. The president > says "We don't torture" while his administration battles against > legislation which would make torture illegal. The movement says it > has scientific proof for the benefit of its programs, but doesn't > want its "proof" examined too closely. Well, in one case, at any rate. More broadly, there hasn't been enough interest on the part of science to give TM researchers the opportunity to *show* whether they were willing to have their evidence closely examined. > As I said before, the "demonstration" demonstrated nothing, except > for its participants. I was a participant myself, and considered > the event one of the great experiences of my life, but I am > comfortable accepting the fact that its impact on the scientific > community and the public at large was next to nil. *If* there really is a Maharishi Effect, it's hard to see how it could be considered anything less than a tragedy that the project and the study had no impact. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
