--- <noozguru@...> mailto:noozguru@... wrote :
 Image if your local police department reported a murder as "someone shot the 
person.  Case closed"  That's almost what the 9-11 official story is like.
 You would have been well advised not to use "RationalWiki" which skeptics 
don't even like.  Those of us who think there is something more to a case than 
reported don't call ourselves "conspiracy theorists."  That term has come about 
and used by PSYOPS to discredit us since the JFK assassination which I don't 
think Oswald had anything to do with because he had a cheap gun and was seen in 
the lunch room at the book depository when the assassination took place.  He 
was a convenience patsy due to his activities.  If Ruby had not shot him it 
might have come out that he got framed.

 Jeez, everyone knows Elvis shot JFK. It's hardly news.
 Anyone on the right track to solving these crimes who has any visibility such 
as a news reporter often gets offed or suicided.  Some of the "nutty stuff" you 
will find in "conspiracy theorist" are PSYOPS trying to "poison the well" lest 
the truth be known.  Just think if we could prove beyond a doubt that 9-11 was 
indeed an inside job and who the perps were how confidence in our government 
would fall, not that it isn't anyway.  And we have long had little confidence 
in our corporations and banks which these days run like gang operations.

 After reading the articles Barry posted I was going to write something about 
how conspiracy theories are probably created by the government to distract 
everyone from what a crap job they actually do at running the country. Be nice 
to think there was someone in power who could organise a job that big, we can't 
even make a computer system to link up health districts without the ministry 
going bankrupt and abandoning it. 
 The USA is a very dirty place.  It was that way from it's inception because 
some of the wealthy landowners didn't want their workers to have rights and 
some wanted the US to still be beholding to Britain.  Our democracy is an 
illusion and the king makers hate anyone who points that out.  A lot more 
people would have probably taken to the streets during the Occupy Movement but 
they feared losing their jobs.  We live in a country of increasing "have nots", 
people who have lost even their simple pleasures of life because a plan to put 
all but a few in austerity.
 So many detractors here seem to have little knowledge of history and just 
react emotionally.  I guess some folks want to live in a simple world of Santy 
Claus and Easter Bunnies.
 Both of which are inventions, just like the conspiracies.
 What worries is me that you have such a disconnect from the people that run 
the US that you actually think they would murder thousands of their own people 
for reasons best known to themselves. 

 Whoa, Jack! You're half reading me.  I'm not alleging that our politicians 
conspired to pull off 9-11.  It's a shadow government that many people in the 
US believe exists (and probably many folks in the UK believe about your own 
government).  Killing thousands would rile up Americans (and believe me the 
days following they were insanely riled) to support anything the  government 
asked if it involved retaliation.  So Arab terrorists did 9-11 and we go off 
and bomb Afghanistan and Iraq.  Shouldn't we have bombed Saudi Arabia instead?  
Something wrong with that picture?
 BTW, for some reason a lot of people who worked at the WTC were told to stay 
home that day.
 There's a kind of movement like that in the UK about the Islamic terrorist 
that blew up some tube trains a decade ago. The story goes that the government 
knew about it but let it happen because it would be an excuse to rachet up the 
anti-terror laws, which completely coincidentally can also be used to harass 
innocent people whenever the state feels like it.

 The UK subway bombings indeed smell of a false flag.  These types of 
operations have been around for centuries but I guess that history wasn't your 
favorite subject?
 I don't believe it for the simple fact that however cynical politicians get 
it's their own friends and family that might get blown up. You don't seem to 
have that sort of human link, sure the govt in the US has blood on its hands 
but the 9/11 conspiracies are qualitatively different from interfering in the 
politics of left wing countries or suppressing anti-capitalist demonstrations. 
It isn't a quantitative thing at all.

 See my above comment.
 I think it's the conspiracists that react emotionally, something unbelievable 
happens and the dots get joined up irrationally, anything to make it make sense 
that doesn't just mean the world is so dangerous a bunch of religious 
fruitcakes can walk onto planes in America and fly them into public buildings. 
I'd hate to live in a country where I thought the government would actually 
blow me up as an excuse for starting a war in a third world country, some of 
the residents of which had already made some bold attacks on the US - unless 
they were conspiracies too.

 In the 1960s they wanted to send us young guys off to the rice paddies of 
Vietnam to get our asses shot off. Gulf of Tonkin is a confirmed false flag to 
gain public support.  The poor Vietnamese just wanted their country back after 
centuries of domination by foreign powers.  Now we do trade with them. Go 
 Because of the crap you can find on youtube, I know people who actually think 
ISIS and Al Queda don't exist at all and were created so the "west" can clamp 
down on personal freedom. We realists know they just used the 9/11 and 7/7 
bombings as an excuse for that.....

 This history of Al Qaeda is well known from their existence as Mujahideen and 
supported by our CIA to fight against the Russians in Afghanistan.  They've now 
morphed into ISIS.  Some of us weren't born yesterday.  BTW, when is it you 
turn 1?  :-D 
 On 10/11/2014 10:46 AM, seerdope@... mailto:seerdope@... [FairfieldLife] wrote:
   The term “conspiracy theory”, though I use it myself, is a two-edged sword 
that may have outlived its usefulness.  Those challenging mainstream knowledge 
and conventions are routinely cast as conspiracy nuts – and implying that such 
nut jobs glob onto many such “oddball” explanations of the universe as a crutch 
to cope with reality, It has acquired a derogatory meaning and can become a 
perverse tool applied to dismiss or ridicule unconventional beliefs, a tool of 
suppressing sincere inquiry and challenging of prevailing norms and wisdom, 
defying gut instincts (aka cognitive biases) and seeking truth no matter where 
it takes you and at what costa.  
 Many breakthroughs and new understanding of how the world works, including 
counter-culture ideas, and challenges to the establishment, have been initially 
derided as crack-pot ideas, conspiracy theories, promoted by nut jobs. Derision 
of challenging and troubling ideas is a core defense mechanism.  
 A vast list of crack-pot ideas, inflammatory, and/or conspiracy-driven dibble 
has unfolded and become in our lifetimes mainstream wisdom – a few, both large 
and small (may) include (not in any order of impact or importance:  the Snowden 
leaks, Pentagon Papers, Lewinsky’s blue dress, lack of weapons of mass 
destruction, Judith Bourque’s book, Iran-Contra, the Madoff scandal, genocides 
and mass murder of German concentration camps, Stalin, Mao, Khmer Rouge, Sudan, 
Native Americans, “California real-estate prices never go down”, the USDA’s 
food triangle, equal pay for equal work, segregation, JFK’s affairs, Watergate, 
MY Lai, black site prisons, priest pedophilia, the tech bubble (“you just don’t 
GET it”), the housing bubble, Goldman Sachs, the extent of regulatory capture, 
animals having emotions, Sandusky, celebrities coming out of the closet, the 
Higgs Boson, Masters and Johnson, a black president, LBJ’s decline seek 
re-election, the value of “health foods”, vegetarianism, yoga and meditation, 
game-changing technology, global climate change, etc. More so over the march of 
time – much of mainstream science came from those initially labeled heretics, 
crackpots, etc.
 Though many weird, strange, mind-blowing, unbelievable things have turned out 
to be true, that hardly means that all weird, strange, mind-blowing, 
unbelievable things are true.  
 Some core distinctions are willingness to systematically, without bias or 
agenda, challenge one’s own and society’s views, models of how the world works, 
prevailing understandings and conventional wisdom. These are high virtues, not 
something that is worthy of derision and labels such as conspiracy theories.. 
 However, it is hardly a virtue to be driven by conformational bias in 
assembling facts to form an apparent, though illusory random pattern in order 
to fulfill some inner need to cast blows against the empire, exude elitism, 
deride others, irrationally attempt to bring order and make sense of a seemly, 
at times, irrational challenging life and universe.
 A key distinction is whether one first shoots the arrow or paints the target, 
is open to considering all evidence, a willingness to change views as new 
evidence presents itself, always seeking to find alternative answers to explain 
and overturn one’s current pet POV, having a healthy sense of both skepticism 
and optimism, and  having an identity independent of a particular “truth”.   



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