Yep, Lenz was fucked up, no doubt about it, but I question that he aligned 
himself with the 'bad guys'. Despite confusion about it, and longstanding 
stories, there really are not any 'bad guys' who can produce any results worth 
noting, in the average person, with a healthy mind.  

 Lenz was a shrewd manipulator, and used the power of suggestion brilliantly, 
but had no more power than the average criminal, in waking state. No particular 
alliances with any subtle beings - all fear and imagination. Pretty obvious 
when he talks about it. Building nightmares in people's minds was a specialty 
of his.  

---In, <awoelflebater@...> wrote :


---In, <fleetwood_macncheese@...> wrote :

 Steve, it is Lenz. Almost like he is channeling him. Lenz famously denigrated 
and mocked any spiritual or religious belief, save his own, which changed 
constantly, to keep his dweebs off balance. Barry is more about opposition and 
confusion, but he is not really clear on why he does it, hasn't come 
face-to-face with his experiences with Freddie, the public humiliation, the 
confusion, the turning on others in his spiritual circle. Hasn't looked in his 
mirror, and seen Freddie staring back, yet. Maybe one of these days.

 Funny you should say this. I just finished reading the whole book, from 
beginning to end, the Mark Laxer book chronicling his years with Lenz. It was 
very, very interesting. It explains a whole lot about bawee and his way of 
interacting here, even including his jargon and especially his viewpoints and 
modalities for dealing with others at FFL. But most of all I can more fully 
understand why bawee is the way he is. It is an interesting book and definitely 
worth a read, not because it is particularly well written but because it 
addresses some quintessential aspects of the dangers that seekers can fall 
victim to when faced with a ruthlessly needy 'teacher'. Take the ingredients of 
charisma, an accessibility to some form of power through a tapping into 
seductive forces and entities, a healthy dose of ego and add a group of people 
whose egos can be cajoled and stroked into submission and it results in an 
undying loyalty to some teacher who will ultimately exercise a dangerous power 
and influence over them.

 There are some spooky similarities between my time with Robin and what Mark 
describes in his experience with Rama. However, I believe the two men were very 
different although the manifestation of their dis-ease was similar in some 
essential ways. Rama became a train wreck long before his suicide/misstep off a 
dock into deep water. Based on Mark's account, I believe Rama aligned himself 
intentionally with the bad guys and while it gave him the ability to have 
unnatural influence over others as well as abilities to see things and do 
things beyond what I, for example, am capable of it all came with a terrible 
price. The guy was also a raging narcissist and extremely self indulgent and 
most likely sociopathic. In reading the book I found myself vacillating between 
disgust and pity for the man. He was terribly weak in the ways that count. I 
wonder how the others who were with him fared in later years. Some of those 
people were with him an awfully long time. 

 Anyway, for those interested enough to check it out it is a few hours read. I 
find the phenomenon of guru attraction fascinating and, of course, I compare it 
to my own experience having joined my own brand of cult. 



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