From: "TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" 
To: "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness

From: "anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>

To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental illness

The human species lack of hard wiring makes us more flexible for learning; we 
do not go out and dig burrows and look for nuts in the forest everyday 
(usually), but it makes us susceptible to the mental equivalent of a viral 
attack. We here have all experienced the attack, and many here are still 
dancing to the virus's tune. This is why I called religion a memetic malady or 
disease. That is different from organic insanity. Religion is induced insanity. 

I can live with that. But I don't see any difference in the end state that the 
"induced insanity" of religion creates and the end state that "organic 
insanity" creates. Either way, one is insane. Maybe it's a Buddhist 
thing...Buddhists aren't really concerned
 about HOW things got to be the way they are, only THAT they are the way they 
are, and how to make the best of that. 

If you do not mind being surrounded by insane people I suppose that is OK. If 
you (or someone else probably) want to make a diagnosis and want to cure people 
of the malady, then a proper diagnosis is necessary as organic insanity and 
intractable, impacted belief systems would have a different treatment. Organic 
insanity may not be curable but certain forms might be ameliorated by drugs. 
With memetic insanity, you basically have to dismantle the patient's belief 
system while at the same time instilling a framework for rational thought. As 
we see here on FFL, this process does not work on the web, something more 
visceral is required, an environment where the beliefs and botched reasoning 
simply do not work at all and provide negative consequences if pursued. If that 
sounds suspiciously like brainwashing, it probably is, brainwashing to remove 

The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there a way to 
construct a system that gives us these experiences of unboundedness that does 
not also wreak havoc with this gullibility weakness in the human nervous system.

But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these "experiences 
of unboundedness." That has not been established, merely assumed by centuries 
of religious fanatics trying to convince others that its value trumps 
everything else. 

I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to invent a 
better system, make a case for these types of experience having a value in the
 first place. Most religions have never tried to do this. They just make 
declarations like Maharishi did, along the lines of "The purpose of life is to 
achieve these experiences of unboundedness," which then become dogma and are 
repeated and believed by successive generations of believers. But he never said 
WHY these experiences were supposedly worth achieving. 

Start now...what do YOU see as the VALUE of these "experiences of 
unboundedness" you speak of? If you can't establish that they *have* a value, 
then why do we need a system of *any* kind to achieve them?

Systems already exist, but they are inefficient and quirky, and at best we just 
stumble into them. If the value to the individual is great enough, they will 
find a way. What was of value to me though, might not be of value to another.

I have found these experiences valuable, but it has also been very interesting 
how they have ultimately played out for me. Sam Harris is also promoting those 
experiences in his new book Waking Up, a Guide to Spirituality without 
Religion. These experiences can be fantastic, one can get attached to having 
them but as to how they can be interpreted is another question. What you are 
told in a particular tradition might not be a particularly good way to describe 
them if they tend to reinforce an impacted belief system. My view, at the 
moment, is the nervous system is relieving itself of something, but it is 
difficult to tell just what that something is. I would say the interesting 
spiritual experiences are just artefacts of the system normalising itself, so 
they are not really of real import. If one is seeking heaven and trying to 
avoid hell, one is missing the point of the search, for the point is to 
discover the commonality of both, and avoid being sucked
 either way. For me as time went on such experiences tended to damp out, 
everything kind of flattened out, until one day on a walk there was this shift 
in which the world, as it always had been, was identical with what I had been 

It was a very low key experience, but seeking behaviour simply stopped in its 
tracks and never came back. Because nothing about my 'state' after that 
experience was any different than when I was say 4 or 5 years old (as far back 
as I can remember) or any time in between, this meant logically, that the 
spiritual journey was simply a total ruse, and yet I would never have come to 
this point in this way had I not been taken in. It should be noted that this 
'awakening' experience is not an intellectual one, the thinking mind is 
completely bypassed, it is not as if the mind suddenly comes to a conclusion 
that this was all a waste of time and just gave it all up. It is something that 
hits you in the gut, mind, body, everything disappears for a moment and when 
reflection returns afterwards the mind resumes with, 'this is so obvious, why 
did I not see this before, that this is why the world is here and is this way?' 
Then years follow getting used to the
 implications of that experience, and getting used to thoughts not really being 
a source of truth and a sort of elegant simplicity settles into living, and the 
complete ordinariness of daily experience returns.

What I find interesting now is the early flashes of this kind of experience 
basically show the same thing but are unstable in their long term effects and 
one has a tendency want to hold onto them. Even the best ones never last, and 
one wants them back. Kind of like looking at a hologram, but just a small part 
of the hologram. You see the whole picture, but its fuzzy compared to the 
entire hologram. When the mind is not clear, these experiences lack resolution, 
lack detail in a manner of speaking. But eventually with enough clarity, the 
tendency to grasp them goes away and one is left with ordinary life without the 
desire to seek something more because there is nothing more. The value of the 
experiences keep you going on looking for this resolution, there is a 
difference between giving up, and quietly letting go; one is defeat, the other 
victory, although one did not win anything, get anything, or achieve anything 
more than what went on before. A total
 zero sum game.

Meditation does not produce this realisation, but it does help to clear the 
cobwebs. If you meditate enough, long enough, there is the possibility that you 
will experience 24/7 awareness, but that is not self realisation, it is just an 
indicator that mental clarity about this subject is advancing, it can show up 
early meditation practice, it was 4 or 5 years for me (I have come across TM 
meditators who have practised for almost 50 years and are still anticipating 
this sort of experience, so either they are doing something wrong, or things 
advance or do not advance differently for some). This experience can transform 
in ways one does not expect, for during the search for realisation, things are 
rather bizarre at times. During the seeking phase life really seems more 
abnormal than when I was an ordinary schmuck. A deranged schmuck perhaps is the 
life of a seeker. With self-realisation, you realise you always had 24/7 
awareness, even before you were born.
 That last sentence is a kind of mental analogy because the experience really 
is timeless, and so before and hence really do not apply. So this here is one 
example of having spent 2/3rds of a lifetime seeking what has always been the 
case. I suppose others' experience might deviate from mine. 

If that is not insanity, I do not know what is. I think it was worth it, to 
become an ordinary schmuck again, to not ever have to even have a hint of 
wanting to seek again. If you give up on the search too soon, you do not feel 
it through and through in your bones, it is not satisfying if the experience 
and knowledge just remains merely on the intellectual level, which is the first 
place it is likely to become evident, that what you were seeking was just in 
your imagination and that ordinary, seemingly dull day to day existence was 
actually the whole thing, it has to cut through you like a sword of death. 


Reply via email to