On 10/23/2014 5:04 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com
Well said Barry - and I agree with every word
/You failed to answer Barry's main question: what is the value of the
*From:* "TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]"
*To:* "FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com" <FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:33 AM
*Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Belief in God is a form of mental
*From:* "Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]"
From:* "TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]"
*From:* "anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]"
The question for 'spiritually' oriented individuals would be, is there
a way to construct a system that gives us these experiences of
unboundedness that does not also wreak havoc with this gullibility
weakness in the human nervous system.
But that would presuppose that there is an actual VALUE to these
"experiences of unboundedness." That has not been established, merely
assumed by centuries of religious fanatics trying to convince others
that its value trumps everything else.
I would suggest going back to the starting point and, if you want to
invent a better system, make a case for these types of experience
having a value in the first place. Most religions have never tried to
do this. They just make declarations like Maharishi did, along the
lines of "The purpose of life is to achieve these experiences of
unboundedness," which then become dogma and are repeated and believed
by successive generations of believers. But he never said WHY these
experiences were supposedly worth achieving.
Start now...what do YOU see as the VALUE of these "experiences of
unboundedness" you speak of? If you can't establish that they *have* a
value, then why do we need a system of *any* kind to achieve them?
*Systems already exist, but they are inefficient and quirky, and at
best we just stumble into them. If the value to the individual is
great enough, they will find a way. What was of value to me though,
might not be of value to another.
I have found these experiences valuable...
HOW? I cannot help but notice that you have avoided my question.
DEFINE this "value" that you have "found" in these "experiences of
unboundedness." How *exactly* did they improve your life (or anyone
else's life), in objective terms?
, but it has also been very interesting how they have ultimately
played out for me. Sam Harris is also promoting those experiences in
his new book Waking Up, a Guide to Spirituality without Religion.
And, like you, without presenting a convincing reason WHY they might
These experiences can be fantastic, one can get attached to having
them but as to how they can be interpreted is another question. What
you are told in a particular tradition might not be a particularly
good way to describe them if they tend to reinforce an impacted belief
system. My view, at the moment, is the nervous system is relieving
itself of something, but it is difficult to tell just what that
something is. I would say the interesting spiritual experiences are
just artefacts of the system normalising itself, so they are not
really of real import.
Then why "construct a system to give people these experiences?"
If one is seeking heaven and trying to avoid hell, one is missing the
point of the search, for the point is to discover the commonality of
both, and avoid being sucked either way.
WHY is anyone seeking *either*? And where did you make the connection
between these "experiences of unboundedness" and "heaven" or "hell?"
For me as time went on such experiences tended to damp out, everything
kind of flattened out, until one day on a walk there was this shift in
which the world, as it always had been, was identical with what I had
*I'm not sure you get my point. You, like Sam Harris, are talking
about finding alternative -- theoretically better or more benign --
methods of "giving people these experiences of unboundedness." But it
strikes me that neither of you have ever taken a step back and told us
WHY you or anyone else really *wants* these experiences in the first
place, and more important, what objective *value* these experiences
bring to your life or to the lives of others.
I *understand* what you're saying...I think. I'm just pointing out
that you and Harris both seem to sound as if you're inside a herd of
lemmings presenting options for a new direction in which to run,
without ever making a case for WHY you are running in the first place. :-)