That's funny Ann.  In reading you reply, I caught the last line of xeno's 
dissertation about Barry being a "terrorist in Beliefland" 

 Xeno is probably pretty proud of what he thinks is a clever phrase, and he 
probably just made Barry' month.

 Speaking of which, I wonder if the Leiden gang will celebrate Thanksgiving. 

 Prolly not, unless it could be perceived as a multi dimensional affair, I 
suppose, or at least for Barry.

 Anyway, what you said Ann, is right on.

 If he could just pull himself out of the "strawman" rut, he's make a much 
better informant.

 But, I don't see that happening, unfortunately.


---In, <awoelflebater@...> wrote :

 ---In, <anartaxius@...> wrote :

 This is in regard to the faux enlightenment call that Barry makes in regard to 
Jim. Now I do not know what Barry experiences, or what Jim experiences, but 
Barry always seems to me more in control of what he says than Jim. At any rate 
the exchanges between these two would not probably pass muster as a discussion 
that had anything to do with enlightenment, but Barry is not claiming that this 
is what it is about, while Jim seems to be promoting the exchange as a 
demonstration of enlightenment (Jim) versus ignorance (Barry).

 Jim said the following (emphasis in the original):

 "Enlightenment" is simply defined as life, accompanied by eternal and deep 
silence, Being, during any state of consciousness. End of story. There are no 
automatic attributes beyond that, as the universe takes care of the rest. 
Anyone can gain enlightenment, and with that, their individuality will always 
express enlightenment. To try for some sort of personal algorithm beyond that, 
is a fool's errand; better to focus on your own path, than try to come up with 
any comprehensive list of personal attributes. Silence in activity, always. 


 In the following the first four paragraphs are an edited down version of an 
essay by a Vedantist. The rather short attention span of most of the readers on 
FFL is the reason for the edits.

 'Many teachers promote one of the most famous myths, that silence is somehow 
the ultimate teaching. While understanding the nature of the self in silence 
apparently finishes seeking for a few individuals, silence is certainly not 
superior to the skillful use of words in bringing about enlightenment. This is 
so because silence is in harmony, not in conflict, with self ignorance, as it 
is with everything.' 

 'One can sit in silence without instruction for lifetimes and never realize 
that one is the silence. Knowledge, however, which is a legitimate means of 
knowledge, destroys self ignorance like light destroys darkness. Additionally 
no experience, including the experience of silence, can change thinking 

 'An experience of non-duality may temporarily suspend thought or increase 
one's resolve to see oneself as limitless awareness, but the notion that the 
"I" is limited, inadequate, incomplete and separate is hard wired. It is only 
by diligent practice of the knowledge "I am limitless, ordinary awareness and 
not this body-mind" that the mind's understanding of reality gets in line with 
the nature of the self.' 

 'Why are binding desires such a major problem for anyone seeking 
enlightenment? Because they disturb the mind to such a degree that contact with 
the self as it reflects in the mind is broken, making self inquiry impossible. 
It is contemplation on the reflection of the self in the mind that allows the 
intellect to investigate the self in line with the teachings of self inquiry 
and gain the knowledge "I am the self."

 Some notes here: Anyone who happens to be a Buddhist needs to substitute 
another word for self in the above discussion, as the central feature of 
Buddhism is there is no self, meaning the individual self, person, that people 
think they are. Whereas in the above discussion, self refers to unbounded 
awareness. Now in Maharishi's schema, transcendental consciousness cannot count 
as unbounded awareness because in TC you have no thought and the concept 
'unbounded awareness' cannot be formulated, the concept is formulated once back 
in ordinary waking as a description of that state as it is remembered and 
compared to waking. 

 Cosmic consciousness, also in Maharishi's scheme, is silence that accompanies 
activity, but it is walled off from the activity, so this cannot be unbounded 
awareness either, as it does not penetrate into the world of the senses, it is 
bound by this separation, and neither does more enhanced sensory experience add 
anything to the equation. 

 Now even unity, where objects are appreciated in terms of 'I', that sense of 
'I am that' still shows a lingering sense of separated identity, fragmentation, 
and decoherence of experience, otherwise it would not be necessary to say there 
is an "I" in relation to 'that'. For experience to be 'unbounded' the essential 
value of existence has to be equally present at every aspect of experience all 
the time as that experience. This is actually a no brainer, because ignorant or 
enlightened, the essential value of existence is always present as the 
experience, so it is something one has always known. That is, enlightenment 
does not bring anything new into experience. The things you do to get 
enlightened obviously do have a sometimes profound influence on experience, but 
enlightenment itself is nothing new under the sun.

 It is also open to question whether the silence ascribed to enlightenment is 
really silence. The absence or reduction of mind chatter, does not necessarily 
indicate one is enlightened, there are many situations that can lead to the 
mind stopping and yet self ignorance remains. Partial awakening experiences can 
do this, and while they reveal to the mind something of the nature of 
enlightenment, they are not complete, and ignorance in the form of ego can 
continue to promote itself under the banner of enlightenment, which has not 
occurred, but which the mind mistakenly assumes has happened. Whatever 
experiences one has had, to become the knowledge that is called enlightenment, 
those experiences and their understanding have to be assimilated by the mind to 
the extent that the mind has that knowledge always available during whatever 
experience might be happening, because all the pre-existing states one has 
experienced prior, however grand they might have seemed, are past history, they 
are not there to interpret the currently happening experience.

 Were I to characterise Barry, I would say he is a terrorist in Beliefland.

 This is a non starter Xeno for one simple and real reason: bawee never speaks 
to what people actually believe - he simply makes stuff up to fit his own 
agenda. Consequently you have taken all this time to write a small essay and it 
is groundless because your first premise is out to lunch possibly, and most 
likely, as a result  of the fact that you simply don't read bawee's post 
carefully enough to have figured this small factoid out. Xeno, 99% of what 
bawee claims people believe is not what they believe at all. When I and others 
object to his never-ending tirades saying the same thing over and over and over 
again it is not because he is attacking our beliefs, it is because he makes up 
stuff about what he thinks various people actually believe and it is all BS to 
suit his self-centered agenda. I object to the person bawee, not to any 
'attacks on my beliefs'. He has no interest in what anyone really thinks, he 
simply gets off on tooting his horn as the 'independent thinker' who isn't 
subject (in his own fantasy world) to any dogma or run-of-the-mill paradigms. 
You certainly don't 'get' him at all Xeno. There is only one thing to know here 
- bawee is all about bawee. He doesn't give a crap about anyone else; his 
advice, his opinion doesn't seek to enlighten anyone or to encourage dialogue 
it exists only to allow him a platform on which to stand and watch himself 
pontificate. The guy is a bore. The fact that you took the time to try and 
convince anyone here of any other possibility is only going to make you look 
silly. So, as much as I'd like to address the rest of your post here I can't 
because I don't think you have a real clue about what you are talking about in 
this instance. 

  A belief is the pretence you know something you do not know, an opinion, an 
idea not supported by facts, unlike an informed belief which is more of an 
hypothesis that can stand additional testing. Like balloons floating in Disney 
World, mere beliefs, even if tightly held, are airy ideas that have no 
substance, and Barry is the pin that attempts to pop the pretence. He seems to 
me quite aware of the pernicious effects of mere opinion. My beliefs, your 
beliefs, it does not matter to him. Popping beliefs is not always successful, 
as beliefs may have very tough hides. I would say regarding beliefs about 
enlightenment, that one of the worse is the idea that it can make you better 
than someone else. Because everyone has exactly 100% of what is required for 
enlightenment, this is not really possible. 

 Because beliefs are the primary shield of the ego, and the ego is a fragile 
fiction itself, the attempt to pry beliefs away is at the very least annoying 
to the ego, and at worst terrifying, but here on FFL it is seldom, perhaps 
never, that anything resembling the level of terror would arise from such a 
process because everyone is mostly privately separated in time and distance and 
only assailable through text and occasionally pictures. 

 So here on FFL, if someone says x and says this is striking terror into the 
heart of y, its baloney because it is not really threatening to the ego in this 
situation. What Barry needs is an isolation chamber with some additional 
accessories to put his subjects in so that their imaginary world could be more 
subtlety disassembled. That's not going to happen, so FFL will continue to be 
largely a forum where people complain about other people on the basis of 
whatever opinion is floating in the mind at the time, and Barry will highlight 
that particular stupid opinion, and the complaints will start flying.

 And what is my interest in all this? I am arbitrarily taking sides, without 
stepping too far off the centre line. Since Barry is described as down and out, 
barely hanging on, I view this as a medical intervention even if the supposed 
ailment is a mistaken diagnosis, and I have no doctoral skills on top of that. 
Since I have the gift of prophesy, based on the observation of habitual 
occurrences, I predict Barry will continue to do what he does best, and that is 
almost absolute.



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