--- In [email protected], Michael Dean Goodman 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
>  > Judy continues:
> > I wish he were around.  
> 
> Judy, I AM around - on this list and many others.

I kinda figured you might be.  <whistling>

<snip>
> What I want to do is two things:
> 
>    1. To shift your awareness itself, to direct your awareness back
>       upon its Self, so that the simple, direct "experience" (if it
>       can be called an experience) is an "aha", an awakening!
> 
>    2. To present an understanding that is an alternative to the
>       ignorant "understanding" that we've all been immersed in
>       through our culture/family/school/religion/etc. - to present
>       an understanding that compliments/supports that "aha" 
>       experience.
> 
> > but I'd really like to ask him about being overshadowed by the
>  > relative, which is my sole basis for saying I'm not Self-
realized.
> 
> Judy, have I ever failed to come out to answer your questions?  ;)

Not the ones you've seen!

>  > If my experience is that I'm overshadowed, how would Michael 
>  > interpret that in terms of what he says in this piece?
> 
> What I need here is a more detailed understanding of what you mean
> by "being overshadowed by the relative":

OK, if I could "interrupt" for a second: What I'm
trying to get at is that there are things that lead
one to think one hasn't achieved Self-realization
that don't involve flashy experiences or complicated
concepts or improved behavior or "noticing" witnessing
or not wanting to let go of one's "seeker" identity or
witnessing sleep or clearer transcending or any of
that stuff you listed.

It's not a matter of thinking one knows what
enlightenment will be like, but rather of knowing
what it *isn't* going to be like--i.e., it isn't
going to be like ignorance.

Someone who is still in ignorance knows what
ignorance is like.  So as long as one is still
having that experience--i.e., of ignorance--one
isn't enlightened.

My criterion for ignorance is being overshadowed
by the relative.  I *don't* know what being identified
with the Self is like, so I don't make up a lot of
concepts about it; except that it is *not* being
overshadowed by the relative.

You didn't use the term "overshadowed" in your post,
which is why I brought it up.  Jim quite correctly,
I think, pointed out that you did mention it in
other terms; you talked about strain in action, feeling
that you have a choice of action and that you are
responsible for implementing that choice, that you
are the author of your actions.

In enlightenment, you said, that strain is gone, and
it's "a dramatic shift."

I'm pretty sure I'll recognize it when the strain
goes away.  For now, it's still here (although less
than it once was).

With that as preamble:

>    a. What overshadows you?  Everything, specific things...?

Ultimately, everything.  It's most apparent when
I have to do something I don't want to do or not
do something I do want to do.  But there's also a
sticky feeling about doing what I want to do or not
doing what I don't want to do, in that I know there
would be strain if I couldn't or had to.

>    b. Who/what gets overshadowed?

That question makes no sense to me whatsoever.
It's like asking me the square root of chocolate.

>    c. How do you know you are overshadowed?  What are 
the "symptoms"?

Discomfort, physical and/or mental and/or emotional;
a feeling of resistance, of strain.

>    d. Who notices that you are sometimes overshadowed and sometimes
>       not?

Well, as noted, I would say I'm *always* overshadowed,
except for occasional brief experiences of witnessing.

Which is how I know what being overshadowed is, because
during those experiences, it's gone.  Actually I had a
sense of it before I ever started TM or had any
witnessing--just a general sense of being existentially
oppressed.

St. Paul has a wonderfully convoluted passage about
this, about not being able to do what he knows he
should do; I wonder if you're familiar with it?  If
not I'll try to find it.

As to "who notices," though, again that makes no sense
to me.  The same "who" notices to whom this formulation
doesn't make any sense!  Self-inquiry a la Ramana Maharshi
is not my cup of tea.






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