Yes, a similar split between religionists and spiritual practitioners is in TM 
between those who hold forth (Bevanites) that Fairfield or the TM movement 'is 
for those who have faith and belief in Maharishi and everyone else should 
leave', and then individual practitioners whose spiritual experience with 
meditation is sufficient and convincing.  \  i.e., Rick Archer’s \   
 Strict TM religionists long represented by Bevan on one side and then 
individual transcendent meditationists as spiritual practitioners on the other 
side.  The practitioners have tended to have distanced themselves or they have 
been actively ‘separated’ or ‘disowned’ administratively from the institutions 
of TM, as TM is led by force of a personality.  History is instructive on the 
nature of this separation between religionists and spiritual people by 



S3 writes: Re "Thanks for  the excellent quote by Alexander Parker":  

 Yes, thanks for those limpid sentences. Can't imagine The Pope or Archbishop 
of Canterbury ever coming up with words like that.

 Jesus said: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am 
I in the midst of them." The problems begin when a crowd gathers! Then the 
worship sinks to the level of the lowest common denominator.

---In, <yifuxero@...> wrote :

 Thanks for  the excellent quote by Alexander Parker.  Unfortunately, the 
middle of the 19th century witnessed a decline in the liberal theology of 
George Fox; as the Fundamentalist perspective gained ascendance in the UK and 
the U.S. 
 - for example with John Nelson Darby (1800 - 1882) coming to the U.S. and 
spreading the "Rapture" idea.  This brand of Christianity represented a retreat 
into dogma and strict Biblical interpretation with no latitude whatsoever for 
interior Gnosis.
 Let's see what CT (Christianity Today) has to say about George Fox.  Offhand, 
I'd say that they merely tolerate him with great reluctance.  The notion of 
interior "light" or Gnosis is anathema even in the liberal branches of 
Christianity represented by that Magazine.

 George Fox
 George Fox
 First friend
 View on www.christianitytoday...
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---In, <> wrote :

 “… the first that enters into the place of your meeting, be not careless, nor 
wander up and down either in body or mind, but innocently sit down in some 
place and turn in thy mind to the Light, and wait upon God simply, as if none 
were present but the Lord, and here thou art strong.  When the next that come 
in, let them in simplicity and heart sit down and turn to the same Light, and 
wait in the Spirit, and so all the rest coming in fear of the Lord sit down in 
pure stillness and silence of all flesh, and wait in the Light.  A few that are 
thus gathered by the arm of the Lord into the unity of the Spirit, this is a 
sweet and precious meeting in which all are met with the Lord…. Those who are 
brought to a pure, still waiting on God in the Spirit are come nearer to God 
than words are… though not a word be spoken to the hearing of the ear. In such 
a meeting where the presence and power of God is felt, there will be an 
unwillingness to part asunder, being ready to say in yourselves, it is good to 
be here, and this is the end of all words and writings, to bring people to the 
eternal living word.”  -1660
 -Alexander Parker, Letters of Early Friends, ed. A.R. Barclay (London; Darton 
and Harvey, 1841), pp. 365-66.  Alexander Parker was a close companion of 
George Fox.

---In, <> wrote :

 Text from Northern Europe I'd like to track down is an essay that was written 
from jail in Bern by Inspirationists who were at the risk of a conviction for 
heresy and a death sentence. The essay was a crafted explanation of their 
separatist spirituality, written judiciously in defense so as to get themselves 
out of jail without tripping wires. They got out of jail that time (..and 
eventually came to America).

 The inquisitors or magistrates in these circumstances went after what people 
'believed' by extracting from them statements of their creeds. Not with an 
interest in context of people's experience but what did they 'believe', point 
by point. There being a Church ideological disinterest in people's experience, 
unless of course the 'experience' could convict the separatist. If once moved 
on to a religionist's turf of comparing 'creeds', “..what exactly do you 
believe?”, then it is all over for spirituality and spiritual people.  (Same 
kind of trials of transcendentalists by religionists subsequently coming to 
America, held by the Puritan colony the ISIS of that day.)

---In, <> wrote :

 ..Lot of spiritual people [transcendentalists by other names] fled moving from 
Europe to America.  That can be mapped.  Likewise a Lot practicing meditators 
have skirted around and left the TMO as it became doctrine bound, overtly 
administrative, and itself more a belief-based (religious?) culture. 

---In, <> wrote :

 Excerpts that I heard presented in papers at a conference sounded very similar 
to Barclay's Apology and not unlike a defended sort of fear that practicing TM 
meditators contend with in the TMO's guidelines and administrative inquisitions 
that are held in Fairfield around being able to stay in or even attend 
sanctioned group meditations in the Domes.
 Barclay's Apology

---In, <> wrote :

 Does TM have any European antecedents?


 These old writings reference other writings coming from around Europe, the 
lowlands, France and Spain and Austria. Through history these spiritual people 
would have to take periodic refuge from the religion of the day and so they 
moved around with their experiences too.   

---In, <> wrote :

 I was at a conference not long ago where papers were given by scholars who 
recently have translated old German texts, letters, pamphlets, and tracts of 
satsang-like spiritual groups that were in Northern Europe. Some of these old 
texts were of the Community of True Inspiration, from their own long line of 
mystics going way back who existed in satsanga 'separately' through time while 
the Roman and Orthodox Churches and then subsequently the institutional 
Lutheran churches were each doing their religious persecuting thing. In these 
works of the separatists were overlapping writings from around Europe from 
spiritual luminaries of different decades and centuries. 
 This is recent scholarly work translating this material by American born and 
reared scholars raised speaking German within their families. A best of both 
mother tongues?  Their translations make nice reading as these scholars are 
fluent in both German and English. 

  From this material it is evident that those spiritual folks who surfaced by 
generation or so as leaders or spokespersons by force of spiritual experience 
are like more powerfully transforming people we could recognize today like 
Ammachi, Meera, John Douglas, Janet Sussman, Connie Huebner and such folks. 
Different than just religionists each have Quietism running through the 
cultural DNA of their spirituality and teaching.      


yifuxero writes: 

 Thanks for the followup discussions!  I had to google Lollardy to find out 
more.  In that it's associated with Wycliffe and many Lollards were his 
followers; it appears that relating to the eventual development of Quietism, 
Wycliffe may have been in some ways a setback.  His "Bible" only viewpoint help 
set many free from the clutches of Catholicism and present day Evangelicals 
rank him as one of the greatest of all-star predecessors to the antinomianism 
we see today in say, the Southern Baptists.
   Unfortunately, there seems to be no strain of Self(Gnosis) revelation in 
Wycliffe, unlike Fox who in my book was one of the greatest of the 
Enlightenment pioneers.   Hence....segue to modern practitioners of meditation 
that have inherited the Quietist inspiration.

  The concept of cultural DNA is fascinating and makes the Provenance question 
all the more difficult to simplify in something like an unbroken linear tree 
(as may be found in Shankara's Tradition or  among the Patriarchs of Jerusalem 
  Such topics no doubt may provide fuel for a host of Phd dissertations, but 
there's one aspect of transmission such scholars would rather not touch upon 
due to political or cultural correctness:  That is - by way of example - that 
a. as in the case of individuals such as Fox, direct revelation from some 
aspect of "God" is possible and may lead to new Movements of great importance.  
Likewise from the Indian subcontinent there are many examples of great Saints 
having no particular Guru.  b. Similarly, a whole wave of  people can incarnate 
and be ready for an appearance of somebody like MMY; and it would be difficult 
for anybody to come up with logical antecedents or an explanation even from 
cultural DNA.

 Simply put, a. individuals and groups can receive direct experiential 
revelation through interior means and such pioneers are ready for the new 
knowledge because they have prepared for it in previous incarnations.  This 
idea would be completely taboo among Ivy League scholars. But imo there would 
be no other way to explain why MMY came to the West and people were already 
prepared for it!  Why? Because they incarnated to meet up with that particular 
Sage in space/time....with no antecedents necessary.
 There were of course antecedents to TM such as Yogananda's Kriya Yoga but that 
Movement was insufficient to explain the later development of the TM Movement 
with its many adherents.
 It's not necessary for us to look for the Teachers of the Buddha, Jesus, 
Shankara, or Ramana Maharshi. They had direct experiential revelation.   (of 
course, in many cases both aspects can coexist)...external teachers and 
internal revelation.
 Thanks again!
 Lollardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 Lollardy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 Lollardy (Lollardry, Lollardism) was a political and religious movement that 
existed from the mid-14th century to the English Reformation. It was initially 
led ...

 View on
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---In, <> wrote :

 Yes, experienced Spirituality and its supporting ideas were much more fluid 
than we might suppose moving across Europe evidently going way back in time. 
People and their experiences with spirituality it seems have traveled back and 
forth across Europe from early times and evidently the separatist communities 
that facilitated these people and the insight of their practices traded back 
and forth too through time.  

---In, <> wrote :

 Does TM have any European antecedents? 
 ..we can isolate the Silence/Transcending aspect of TM, and for the sake of 
discussion, forget the Puja part.  Then, TM would definitely be in the Quietist 
camp, since there's no imposition of any religious images (they may or may not 
arise spontaneously). 
 The Quietist Movement arose in the Catholic countries: Italy, France, and 
 A parallel type of thinking and practice arose through George Fox, but many 
rudimentary antecedents can be found, for example, some practices of certain 
Gnostics, Cathars, and Meister Eckhart. 
  ..But all of this is heretical, ..eventually tried for Heresy and died in the 
Inquisition prison. 
 But thanks to people like George Fox, the Quietist movement lived on under 
different names.  

---In, <> wrote :

 Many Friends’ ideas can be traced to earlier groups. The first distinct 
Protestant movement in England was Lollardy, arising in the late Middle Ages, 
the 1370s.  

 Good survey of earlier 'Antinomian' England:
Early Quaker History 
 Early Quaker History This information 
was originally presented to the meeting for a “Quakerism 101” course by Eva 
Hersh on 4/13/2003. It was later revised by other members of Ho...
 View on 
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---In, <> wrote :

 "The spread of the Antinomian tradition, as begun by the Lollards, was by 
means of extended kinship, intermarriage, and child rearing and education. As 
will be seen, the Lollard movement, which continued right up to the English 
Reformation of the 1530's, was a dissident religious reform campaign that 
harbored an ingrained Antinomian frame of mind. As such, Lollardy was as much a 
radical stance from which even more radical views and beliefs evolved over 
time, as it was a sect with a definitive theology and program of action. It 
comprised, therefor, many dissident attitudes about the nature of true 
religion,, the character of a “real” church, and the correct role of the state 
in relation to it. In short, it was a conveyor of religious and political 
radicalism. The means of dissident transmission was by families within great 
kin networks, part of a much broader process of what might be called a 
“cultural genetics"."

---In, <> wrote :

 But thanks to people like George Fox, the Quietist movement lived on under 
different names.

 Yes, Jai George Fox!

---In, <> wrote :

 "Kinship, therefore, was a determinant of far more than mere bloodlines: it 
was a radical cultural transmitter, reflecting persistent defining cultural, 
religious, and political traits. It continually revealed repetitive familial 
continuities and ancient customs of significant proportions. Tracing long lines 
of familial descent show that kinship connections almost invariably portended 
the descent of radical religious tendencies, and thus of radical political 
 ..Thus, this continuous, repetitive congeries of familial patterns was not 
only accidental, it was an historically definable and demonstrable phenomenon, 
a marvel of great historical significance."

 Renegade Yankees 
 The Antinomian Tradition and Agrarian Resistance in the Colonial American 
Northeast, 1636-1809
 by Donald Alan Smith  


 Miguel de Molinos was the main inspiration.  

 But Madame Guyon - particularly through her book "A Short and Easy Method of 
Prayer" - helped popularize his approach.

 Her high-profile supporter was Archbishop Fenelon.

 All three were targeted by the Church hierarchy. The history of Catholicism 
would have been radically different if their ideas had been treated with more 


 Jeanne-Marie Bouvier de la Motte-Guyon



---In, <> wrote :

 MD, as one Western transcendental meditationist remarkably you evidently are 
part of a long line-bred tradition that came out of European separatist 
spirituality. This dissertation I am reading describes this as like the 
genetics of cultural familial DNA, a “cultural genetics” passing as cultured 
from generation to generation. 
 ..In your case the English Lollard antinoniam line to New England affecting 
radical religion and politics. There were other transcendentalist spiritual 
lines that migrated directly out of Europe also which affected our American 
radical (transcendent) spirituality (equality) and political sensibilities 
(rights) as to the proper role of church and State in our culture.

 I would nominate you for a Maharishi Award in recognition of you and your 
family's long relationship with this.


---In, <> wrote :

 Good example, MD of how a spiritual movements can spread in a time.  Sort of 
like TM did in the 1950-70's. By shakti of experience and then word of mouth 
from family and friends.  That was the Quaker spiritual movement in its day.  
Mobility through kin and connection.   

 Someone here in Fairfield with connection to Vermont and New England just 
handed me a 900 page dissertation that was written on the spread of what the 
author is calling,  'antinomianism' of various shades.  A study of separatist 
spirituality from European roots moving across New England, jumping and going 
around what was then the ISIS-like colony of its day, Massachusetts Colony to 
settle further into New England.   

 A thesis in this work amongst others is that this separatist spirituality 
(different than religion) moved in its day following kin and business 
connection often through seaports and then inland.          

 MD writes:
 My tenth Great Grandfather , Ambrose Dixon, was born in London in 1623. He 
migrated to James Virginia about 1640. He came over as a ship's carpenter.He 
was a Quaker, living in a predominately Presbyterian community. He and a few 
other Quakers felt discriminated against for their faith and petitioned Lord 
Baltimore to move to Maryland where they were welcomed and granted land. I 
guess you could say he was *in* on the beginnings of the Quaker Sect and one of 
the first in the colonies.



---In, <> wrote :

 Yes, I had wondered this too and chronicled some of it in a subject thread 
here on FFL.   

 Often those who were referred to as 'separatists' had quietism as a central 
practice in addition to may be having Ritam Bhara P (inspired) or attending 
spiritual (chakra) energy work (Pietists).  

 Maharishi's tenet of 'collective meditation' is most similar to George Fox's 
movement in its day.  

 Today someone like Ammachi or Janet Sussman are good examples of the spiritual 
practices of 'piety' at work.  Connie Huebner in Fairfield is a great example 
of the old spiritual line of inspirationists (RPB) coming out of Europe that 
goes way back.  They each blend quietism with their spiritual disciplines.  

 It seems that every generation or so another one rises up with their manifest 
spiritual experience and a satsanga may form.   Generations of separatists 
generated a lot of writing that they passed around between each other in and 
across Europe.    

 You would proly enjoy scrolling down through these posts on transcendentalist 
European separatists
 and their Ashram-like spiritual practice communities:



 426393 RE: In Quiet, European ancestral genealogy of transcendentalism 

 But thanks to people like George Fox, the Quietist movement lived on under 
different names.


---In, <> wrote :

 Does TM have any European antecedents? .  The Quietist Movement arose in the 
Catholic countries: Italy, France, and Spain and is most associated with Miguel 
de Molinos, 1628 - 1696.
 A parallel type of thinking and practice arose through George Fox, but many 
rudimentary antecedents can be found, for example, some practices of certain 
Gnostics, Cathars, and Meister Eckhart.
 .The online sources are using the term "contemplation" (Quietism would be an 
example). The sources use the term "meditation" implying meditation ON various 
religious images and themes including silent repetition of prayers and vocal 
prayers, as well as various religious rituals.  To clarify TM's place in the 
17-th century controversy, we can isolate the Silence/Transcending aspect of 
TM, and for the same of discussion, forget the Puja part.  Then, TM would 
definitely be in the Quietist camp, since there's no imposition of any 
religious images (they may or may not arise spontaneously).  But all of this is 
heretical, as Miguel de Molinos found out some time after his Spiritual Guide 
was published.  At first, the Mystical approach of Molinos was accepted among 
many Catholics, but detractors eventually emerged such as Gottardo Bellhuoma, 
who in 1678 pointed out that (what he called the Quietism of Molinos), was 
definitely heretical since it elevated "contemplation" above "meditation (i.e. 
meditation "on" various religious images along with prayer).
 Some key works or phrases in the Quietist movement:  self-annihilation (of the 
ego), self-absorption, withdrawal of the mind, passivity, and continual 
contemplation on "God" (i.e. the Absolute...not the "God" of the Bible); all 
leading to what the Quietists called the "Unitive Life"  (sound familiar?).  At 
any rate, Molinos was eventually tried for Heresy and died in the Inquisition 
 But thanks to people like George Fox, the Quietist movement lived on under 
different names.




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