Amen.  And this was basically what I was trying to say.


On Oct 6, 2016, at 3:32 PM, [FairfieldLife] 
<> wrote:

I agree with you in a narrow context. That is, if someone were totally 
oblivious to the issues, or perhaps didn't even speak English, and watched the 
debate, they might conclude that Pence won the debate, based on his relative 
composure. But that is all Pence has, the ability to lie with his eyes open, 
and a tight smile on his face. Only superficially did he win anything, and just 
like his boss, in the long run, there is nothing there. 

Politics is necessarily a game of exaggeration and over-simplification, but it 
has reached cartoonish levels with the GOP candidates - they lie, and you 
either ignore them and get challenged on not addressing 'the facts', or spend 
the majority of time refuting the bitter fantasies that they relentlessly dream 
up. A couple of tar babies. It is grotesque, and brings us all down as a 

---In <>, 
<steve.sundur@...> wrote :

All that may be true, and I don't disagree with any of it, but it appeared to 
most watchers, or at least most pundits that he did not win the debate.

Hillary on the other hand seemed poised* when she debated Trump and the results 
speak for themselves.

*of course she prepared arduously.  but at the risk of sounding like a bliss 
ninny, she appeared to be herself, and not operating with an ulterior agenda, 
which if you buy the scenario put forth by Ann and Judy was the plan with Kaine.

---In <>, 
<olliesedwuz@...> wrote :

Kaine's performance wasn't all scripted. What I saw was someone who cares 
deeply for his country, and has great respect and trust in the candidate who 
has chosen him as running mate. I saw him genuinely a little pissed off at the 
constant lies and rhetoric leveled at Clinton, by Trump, someone with no 
experience except in running his mouth. Pence has essentially made a deal with 
the devil. He enjoys his little perch, preaching to the masses, and riding 
around in limos. Reminds me of an organ grinder's monkey. He hopes to 
capitalize on it, and continue giving the country away to his rich friends, 
safe in his "messiah's" shadow, while castigating those who do not pay 
obeisance to his biblical hallucinations. What a phony, creepy, fake, with 
those deep set beady little eyes darting around. He and Trump are the very 
worst this country has to offer, and anyone can see through this toxic couple, 
like the con-artists they are.

---In <>, 
<steve.sundur@...> wrote :

As I said, I did not watch the debate, so was limited to the clips and the post 
debate commentary which seemed to give the "win" to Pence.  However, if, as you 
speculate, the purpose of the debate on the Clinton side was "capture  sound 
bites" and not really debate the issues, well that sounds pretty strange in 
itself, and I guess, sorta proves my point.

Bring out Kaine with a different agenda than to debate, but rather try to make 
the opponent make statements for fodder in future campaign ads.

And again, if that is the case, then I would have preferred to see a more 
honest debate, than one with that ulterior motive.

But also, according to your analysis below, the reason Pence DID appear to come 
out the winner was because he WAS himself, with all the lies and 
misrepresentations.  He evidently is comfortable with that, and that came 

Just sayin'

---In <>, 
<awoelflebater@...> wrote :

I totally disagree with the 'pundits' on who "won" the debate. The only person 
out there who told the truth and who had hard facts at his disposal (like 
direct Trump and Pence quotes) was Kaine. He came off a bit awkward at first 
firing accusations (timing wasn't great) but he got into the rhythm of the 
thing as the debate went on and was reasonably formidable in his take down or, 
at least, his confrontation of Pence concerning Trump and his ugly and ignorant 
rhetoric. I thought Kaine's statement on women having the right to determine 
what they do with their bodies was strong and as we now all know in the 
aftermath, much of the way the debate played out was totally planned by the 
Clinton campaign as a way to capture sound and video clips for their expose 
spot afterwards to highlight the lies Pence was spewing the entire time. Just 
because Pence can sit there like some robotic cadaver and speak in this 
placating kind of marmish tone does not a debate winner make. I can't figure 
out why this qualifies as making him the winner. He couldn't defend Trump 
except to shake his head and priss his lips or outright lie. That is hardly a 
strong defense of his running mate.

---In <>, 
<salsunshineiniowa@...> wrote :

Remember the nickname they gave Bush, the Smirking Chmip?    Pence could easily 
be the Smirking Sociopath, he lies with such effortlessness and oiliness.  Even 
against video evidence, it's like he's some alternate universe or something.


On Oct 5, 2016, at 9:55 AM, olliesedwuz@... <mailto:olliesedwuz@...> 
[FairfieldLife] < 
<>> wrote:

> There is a delusional element among the religious right, who fervently 
> believe that Trump is our next MESSIAH, the Great White Hope who will restore 
> righteousness among the wicked. Pence is clearly one of them. "Smirky" Pence, 
> the know-it-all, self-righteous, bible-thumping hypocrite. 
> I enjoyed Kaine, who comes across as sane, capable and tough. The 'debate' 
> was farcical though, with Smirky constantly trotting out lies, and Kaine 
> refuting them - So nothing new from that angle. Rote Republican desperation, 
> and the usual attempt by the only adult in the contest to stay in the domain 
> of reality. 
> Yeah, the Trump Toilet/Pence Paper ticket is one to avoid at all costs.
> ---In <>, 
> <awoelflebater@...> wrote :
> ---In <>, 
> <authfriend@...> wrote :
> For those uncertain as to how my last four posts relate to FFL's concerns as 
> a spiritual group: The Trump/Pence ticket is a blatant example of spiritual 
> degradation--lying, cheating, hypocrisy, and sheer recklessness with the 
> welfare of humankind. Anybody who is at all spiritually aware should oppose 
> these candidates with every fiber of their being.
> Trust me, every fibre of my being is resonating with contempt and an 
> understanding for how hideous the Trump/Pence ticket is. Between the 
> mono-syllabic undertaker and his bloated and corrupt running mate it is a 
> frightening and sickening to behold. My absentee ballot is sitting to the 
> right of me on my desk ready to be mailed and, believe me, it is for 
> Hillary/Kaine - my only regret is my one vote can't be counted as one million.

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