Dear a_non, Boy I'd hate to be someone else trying to follow the voices in this thread. Anyway, thank you for responding. I liked your responses.
BTW, I'm not a regular reader here. So when I found you mocking Peter et al ("mocking" being your word for what you were doing), I wondered about it. Many of your points have merit. As for me, I'm just waiting to see what clarity of understanding grows (in this mind/intellect) as the light shines forth more and more. My vote for point most moving on the feeling level in your post: > All of this is interesting, quite a foundational shift. Or what I term > a CORE shift. What one thought was the core of ones life is not the > core. "Something" else is found to be the core. > > ====== to be continued in a later post ======= I hope that you do. Thanks - another anon. ********** ORIG POST ************ --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > Another Anon has comments inserted below. > > Good questions. Responses interspersed below. > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If someone is having "enlightenment" experiences or is > > > > stabilized as Self and talks about an ego, I don't > > > > doubt their experiences, I just wonder what it is they > > > > are referring to when they say "ego." When I say in > > > > enlightenmernt that there is no ego what I mean is > > > > that there is no subjective self. There is no "me". > > > > The pronoun "me" or "I" doesn't refer to anything. The > > > > mind looks for something and there is nothing there, > > > > literally. In waking state the mind turns inward and > > > > experiences a thought/feeling sense of an individual; > > > > a private "me." This is what disappears in CC. There > > > > is just consciousness and then everything else > > > > (objective and subjective). You could say, "I am pure > > > > consciousness", but the problem with this is that > > > > there is no "I" to be or not to be anything. There is > > > > just consciousness and objects that are not > > > > consciousness. Thoughts and feelings are there, but > > > > there is no "I" having these or taking ownership of > > > > these subjective experiences. > > > > > > > All that is good and fine. > > > > ^^^^^ > > So that means that you accept Peter at his word for what his > > experience is? > > I do. I think Peter is a sincere and honorable guy. However, I do > believe that misinterpretation and cognitive errors may be involved in > his reporting of his experiences. As with all of us. And his often > absolutist and universality of his proclamations can be problematic. > > > What about the others (Tom T, Michael G, Jim, Rory, > > other?) > > I believe that misinterpretation and cognitive errors may be involved > here also. And other factors (for some not all). Among these issues > are very active imaginations, almost imagineering of experiences. And > lots of reading of many sources which seems to taint the descriptions. > For some it does not feels "digested" and personally reported but > rather parroting from what has been heard or read. And some appear to > have an intense ownership of their thoughts and ideas, very thin > skinned to questions and challenging of their ideas. Not that these > factors make them insincere, but they are factors that could be > involved in something more than solely a deep personal "struggling" to > try to convey personal experiences. > > (Ownership of ideas to me indicates a lingering identiy with the mind > and its products. A situation which contractices the basic > "definition(s)" of "enlightenment") > > > >In other words, are you expressing doubts only about the > > terminology used and the universality and/or significance of their > > experiences? or are you also expressing doubts about what they say > > are their experiences as well? > > I try to take them at their word. My main concern is that, upon doing > so, they have different definitions of enlightenment (and some > struggle to even define the criteria for such), and are reporting > different experiences. Thus, my point is that use of terms like > "enlightenment" and "awakinging" are meaningless in discussions such > as we have on FFL. Talk then focuuses on an abstraction, a label. > Worse yet, its a label with many meanings for many people. > > On the other had, simply talking about a direct experience, such as > "wakefulness during sleep" can be good and useful. > > > In my own case, I experience a subjective sense of localized > > individual self, and have trouble imagining what it would be like to > > be conscious and functional and not have that subjective sense. > > A bit of that may be good, but as you seem to say, it quickly leads to > the conclusion that it can't be done. Use of the intellect is NOT to > figure out what IT is, but rather to figure out what IT is not. Neti > neti, "the dog who didn't bark" sort of thing.. > > > On > > the other hand, people report not having this sense, and don't > > report it as a liability or a psychologically or neurologically > > dysfunctional condition. Rather, they report it as some kind of > > more "realized" improvement over having a subjective sense of > > localized individual self. So I'm inclined to have an open mind on > > this as a possibility. I was wondering where you stood on this. > > I think we all have some experience of Consciousness in silence and > activity. IT glowing within ITself. I also find an intellectual > understanding, and then a Groking of body, mind and intellect acting > by themselves according to their own natures. > > All of this is interesting, quite a foundational shift. Or what I term > a CORE shift. What one thought was the core of ones life is not the > core. "Something" else is found to be the core. > > ====== to be continued in a later post ======= > ------------------------ Yahoo! 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