--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <no_reply@> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote: > > <snip uninteresting stuff to> > > > > So if you've got another possibility other than the > > > > two I mentioned for WHY someone would believe such a > > > > thing, fire away. > > > > > > Okay, one was the experience factor, the other was the > > > belief factor. There is no such thing as the one without > > > the other. There is always a mix, it just depends how > > > much it is leaning to either side. > > > > Not true. Not true at all. > > > > On this very newsgroup there are people who feel > > that certain books (including but not limited to > > Maharishi's books) that pretty accurately describe > > enlightenment or various other spiritual experiences. > > These people in many cases have never *had* those > > experiences, but are nonetheless convinced that the > > descriptions and/or explanations of them they've > > read about are accurate. > > I didn't say that the experiences they have had are exactly > the ones that were described. But I believe most of them had > experiences of one sort or another, which made them go for > these very books, etc. For example, somebody had an experience > with TM - following a set of instructions laid out by the > MMY - and therefore tends to believe that MMY knows about > higher states of Consciousness. His belief is therefore > reinforced by experience. Acting on those beliefs he may > come across another experience, - again not necessarily > identical to those described, but sort of in the same > direction, and therefore tends to give some more authority > to MMY, therefore the experience is reinforcing his beliefs > once more. > > This is how it works for most people, and therefore what > I say is perfectly true.
Not "pefectly," but you're right...people do tend to re-believe the people they've believed before. This often tends to be an enormous trap, as when they believe that Maharishi says about politics is valid just because what he said about how TM seems to work was valid. > > So it is definitely NOT > > the case that belief and experience always go > > hand in hand. > > Even a fundamental Christian may have had an Awakening > experience, and therefore believes that anything > connected with that religion is true. You're deluding yourself...*most* Christians in the world have had NO SUCH EXPERIENCE. They are merely trusting what they have been told to trust. > > If that ain't enough to dispel your oversimplifi- > > cation, think about books that describe what > > happens after one dies. A *lot* of people believe > > they're true, but they're not necessarily basing > > that belief on their own personal experience. :-) > > They may or they may not. Many though do have experiences > which reinforce that belief, like you had an experience > of a past lifetime, or simply things said there match > with their own experience. Like you may have had > experiences which go beyond the purely physical realm, > and therefore conclude that there is something more > that doesn't die with the body. The rest is some kind > of reasoning. So, as I said, its ALWAYS a mix. To > believe otherwise is simplification, black and white > painting, as you did. I think you've caught a case of "Judy disease," and are just trying to avoid admitting that you made a statement that wasn't well thought through. :-) > > > The third you brought up is the authority factor. My > > > suggestion is that believers are aware they are giving > > > authority to somebody, like a priest or a guru, and it > > > has something to do with feelings of trust, confidence, > > > and probably experience as well. That's why people have > > > favorate priests and Gurus. > > > > > > IOW they already know it. > > > > It's fine for you to believe that, but I think you > > are fooling yourself. In my experience, which > > includes a wide range of spiritual trips, I would > > say that a great number of people are NOT aware of > > how much of their belief system is based on trusting > > the words of someone who told them what to believe. > > I don't believe you. Of course TMers know that they are > trusting MMY, Rama guys knew they were trusting him etc. I don't really much care whether you believe me. But you've got your head up your ass if you think that the phenomenon I mention above doesn't exist. > Catholics have big discussions about the infallability > of the pope etc. So they know. *Some* Catholics do. The vast *majority* of them worldwide, however, never question what they were told. Sit down and talk with priests sometime; you'll find that they agree with me, not you. > > They've just accepted the words of the trusted person > > for so long that they no longer even *remember* that > > the things they believe are true were *told* to them; <snip to a wonderful slip> > > they just accept them as true, kind of a never-to-be- > > challenged baseline set of assumptions. > > Because they choose so. OOOOPS. You meant to say something like, "The universe *made* them believe that way," didn't you? After all, in other portions of this thread, you've been harping on the olde "no one really has the ability to make a choice" thang, n'est-ce pas? :-) <snip more stuff> > > > But everybody leans on authorithy, be it > > > Marx or Nietzsche or Jiddu Krishnamurty or whoever > > > you though was cool at a time. > > > > I am suggesting that not everyone DOES lean on > > authority. > > EVERYONE does. But for many its unconscious. See what I mean about having caught the "Judy disease?" :-) YOU "know" this. If someone else says otherwise, they are WRONG, because YOU know the truth. Do you LISTEN to what you say before you write it? :-) <snip more stuff to> > > It doesn't make my stance any > > "better" than anyone else's; it's just my predilection, > > that's all. > > > > > But the ones giving authorithy to Marx, Krishnamurty > > > etc, deny that they are doing it, because they buy > > > into a certain rational, which they consider their own. > > > > Sometimes it *IS* their own. :-) > > Well, thats what they believe anyway. I see. YOU "know" better. :-) > They have been so fooled by they rationale, that they > can't look beyond it, so they think its their own > way of thinking. Whereas YOU "know." I think I'm getting it. :-) > > > And thats of course a mistake. > > > > Sez who? Some "authority" you trust? :-) > > My intuition And, of course, YOU "know," whereas these other people, trusting *their* intuition, are WRONG. Am I getting this right? :-) > > > They are also beliefers, but they just don't know. > > > > Give me a concrete example of someone who you feel > > does what you're talking about, and how you "know" > > they really believe in some "authority," while > > claiming not to. I don't think you'll be able to. > > Well, Barry, I really hate to get personal, but you > yourself would be a perfect example. Almost everything > you ever said here is just an echo of this Rama guy > (who of course had his own mix of guys he echoed) Actually, that's not true. Very LITTLE of what I have said here is from Rama, and much of it is the complete *opposite* of what he said or believed. So much so, in fact, that whenever I *do* say some- thing that agrees with something he said, I point it out as one of the *few* instances of agreeing with him. Get over it. Within what's left of the Rama trip, I am considered a total heretic. People have told their students *not* to read my book or anything I have to say about Rama, to avoid putting their souls in peril. And to be honest, they might be onto something. :-) SOMEDAY, Michael, you should just learn to realize when you're arguing just because your buttons got pushed. This is one of those times. :-) :-) :-) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! 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