leadership - Guru Dev desperately just wanted to be left alone and
escaped into the forest. MMY desperately wanted to be a world leader
with a world government of his own.. well Nature obviously had other
plans. But take for instance Gandhi. He may have not have
been "enlightened" as such but was perceived as "personifying"
enlightened leadership and WAS inspirational as a leader and brought
about change well beyond the political expectations of his day -
against the world power ruling his country. And he did it all in a
spiritual, non-violent way, at considerable personal risk. Then
there is the example of Jesus - also spiritual & inspiring but
unable to deal with Roman might the way Gandhi managed with the
British - but then perhaps he was too much ahead of his time and
paid the penalty - timing is obviously another factor to consider.
So we have enlightenment (or near enlightenment), popular perception
of the leader as "personification" of enlightenment, which thereby
inspires the people and results in an effect that is greater than
the sum of its parts, so long as location & timing are right and
Nature doesn't have other plans....
--- In [email protected], new_morning_blank_slate
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> While not directly responding to any particular post or poster,
much
> of the discussion appears to be premised on the assumption that
> enlightenment in-itself is a strongly positive characteristic
> desirable in a leader. And perhaps some feel that enlightenement
> in-itself would be sufficient to make anyone a great political
leader.
> I question such assumptions.
>
>
> First, some who claim enlightenement, make a case that
consciousness
> awake to itself has nothing to do with behavior, good or bad. And
the
> later is still quite possible.
>
> Second, this view is different than MMY's who hold in
enlightenment,
> all action is accord with the laws of nature, life suppporting.
etc.
> This concept may be behind the call for "enlightened" leadership.
But
> This is a supposition, a hypothesis that is hard to fully test.
Thus
> enlightened leadership with all action is accord with the laws of
> nature, being life suppporting etc may be just a nice myth.
>
> Third, effective political leadership usually requires many diverse
> qualities, experience and training. That much current political
> leadership is not effective underscores this -- many leaders don't
> have of the desirable qualities, experience and training that
support
> effective leadership. To assume that an enlightened person without
> strong leadership qualities, experience and training will be a good
> leader is a deeply flawed premise. Scary in fact. Personally I
can't
> imagine any good outcome if some, perhaps if any, of those claiming
> enlightenement were to become governor or president.
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "claudiouk" <claudiouk@>
wrote:
> >
> > Maybe it's another "chicken or egg" connundrum... but I think if
we
> > go down a scale I'm sure we can find variousa historical cases
of an
> > unenlightened population experiencing a political shift from
> > oppressive rule to a more benign one, without much change
happening
> > inbetween in the collective consciousness.. Maybe the Collective
> > Karma is the key player here? Also I'd rather think an
enlightened
> > leader - even in the army - can lead by INSPIRING followers to
new
> > moral and practical achievements, not merely reflecting the
lowest
> > common denominator.. such as when slavery was abolished in spite
of
> > overwhelming contrary interests and forces etc. If one had to
wait
> > for an enlightened society as a precondition, who'd need the
> > enlightened leader anyway - every individual would be "sovreign
&
> > invincible"...
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "jyouells2000" <jyouells@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], "Patrick Gillam"
<jpgillam@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- authfriend wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > the TMO concepts of enlightened leadership, on the
> > > > > one hand, and leadership that reflects the
> > > > > consciousness of the people, on the other hand,
> > > > > don't seem to mesh very well. In other words,
> > > > > they can't both be true.
> > > >
> > > > I feel a little foolish to admit I'd never noticed this
> > > > conflict before. It's funny! Maybe, in the TMO worldview,
> > > > enlightened people are liberated from ties to
> > > > collective consciousness, just as they're liberated
> > > > in the sense of no longer having their consciousness
> > > > bound in ignorance of its true nature.
> > > >
> > > > Still, that doesn't help with governance, because one
> > > > cannot simply order people to do what they're not
> > > > really committed to doing. (Stalin had ways to make
> > > > it work, and Maharishi seems to have some success,
> > > > but they're special cases.) So an enlightened leader
> > > > might say, "Let's forgive the terrorists," but the people
> > > > would say, "Screw that, I want blood." And the enlightened
> > > > leader would have a problem.
> > > >
> > > > I had a conversation about this topic of orders versus
> > > > persuasion with an Army major in my acquaintance.
> > > > I said, "It seems to me that in the Army, of all places,
> > > > you could just say, 'Do this,' and it would get done."
> > > >
> > > > He said, "Well, you could, but officers who work that
> > > > way don't advance very far." He said subordinates will
> > > > only do the minimum required to comply with the order,
> > > > which isn't enough for real success in any endeavor
> > > > short of maybe digging a latrine.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Or they could do what Krishna advised Arjuna to do. Forgive
them,
> > then
> > > kill them.
> > >
> > > JohnY
> > >
> >
>
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