--- In [email protected], "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "sparaig" <sparaig@> wrote: > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "jyouells2000" <jyouells@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "sparaig" <sparaig@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <jstein@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Vaj <vajranatha@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2006, at 12:01 PM, sparaig wrote: > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > There's no mention of correlation between EEG changes > > and > > > > > > > > > enlightenment in any of the research that Vaj mentions, > > > > > whereas > > > > > > > > > that's one of the big areas of study for EEG and brain > > > > > imaging > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > MUM currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way I would show the same EEG pattern if I wanted to > > > > > > > > duplicate "witnessing" on the EEG is to do ishta > > meditation > > > > > > > > with a mantra (what Tibetans call yidam practice). It > > > > > > > > duplicates the same EEG signature as TMers doing ishta > > > mantra. > > > > > > > > Very easy to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But you'd be meditating, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Lawson's talking about in activity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Both. The description of meditation in the samatha pdf file > > > starts > > > > > > off sounding like TM and then morphs into something else, or > > so > > > it > > > > > > seems. Any technique that inspires that kind of first-hand > > > > > > description definitely isn't TM, though without direct > > > comparisons > > > > > > of EEG and other physiological parameters, we can't be sure > > if > > > the > > > > > > distinctions have any pragmatic effect on what is actually > > > going on > > > > > > in the brain. > > > > > > > > > > Right. My point was that Vaj is claiming he can emulate > > > > > the TM EEG signature *during meditation*, but even if he > > > > > can, that wouldn't necessarily mean he could also > > > > > emulate it *during activity*. > > > > > > > > > > While "witnessing" certainly can occur during TM, the > > > > > bread-and-butter aspect is when it occurs in activity. > > > > > > > > > > > Also, Ken Wilber's cute little EEG demo shows nothing in and > > of > > > > > > itself. Vaj appears to be basing his claims on Wilber's demo > > or > > > > > > something that he has done himself with similar apparatus. > > > > > > > > > > Well, it shows he has some control over whatever it is > > > > > the machine is measuring, which is moderately impressive > > > > > in and of itself. But it doesn't get us anywhere unless > > > > > we have a better idea of what it's measuring. > > > > > > > > Judy, > > > > Wilber talks extensively about his experience of witnessing. > > From > > > > his writings it's pretty clear he has the experience. > > > > > > I don't believe I suggested that Wilber didn't have > > > the experience of witnessing, so I'm not sure of the > > > relevance of this to what I said. > > > > > > > He may or may not. *I* question whether or not two different EEG > > patterns that lead to the same description are really the same state, > > however. > > > > Sure but the same can be said about correlating any physical > measurements of any subjective states. There's a certain 'leap of > faith' about the correlation even between folks doing the same technique.
Yeah, but when the measured brain activity ties in with both the traditional description of meditation AND with the Western description of how the brain works, you start to think that maybe MMY is onto something and that the EEG and brain imaging of TM has some meaning consistent from person to person. In the case of fMRI and TM, there's evidence that TM reduces the activity of the thalamus, which is the gateway into the brain for the three most-used human senses: vision, hearing and touch. No other technique has this effect that I've heard --in fact, concentration should do the exact opposite, and it is perfectly in-line with the Krishna's description of meditation in the Gita as withdrawing the mind from the senses like a turtoise withdraws its legs into its shell. When we say that TM rests the mind in a way that is unique, it really is: the senses feed into the thalamus and the thalamus feeds into the sensory regions of the cortex and the cortex feeds information back into the thalamus, setting up a reinforcing loop of sensory input that can persist for a while even after you stop watching/listening/touching something. TM reduces the activity of this loop in what appears to be a unique way. In a very real, physiological way, the mental (sense-based) activity of the brain reduces during TM because TM reduces the activity of the gateway to the senses, both physical and subtle. That doesn't happen with other techniques as far as the current evidence shows. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Great things are happening at Yahoo! Groups. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/TISQkA/hOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
