Michael's formula is 155 centers x 50 avg initiations. The 155 centers with recerts seems high - I'm talking about really active centers, not just an address/phone. The recert course had a little over 200 CPs as I remember, and about 1/3 were staff who were going back to staff jobs, so that leaves about 155. Every single recert I know who went out to teach TM has since come back due to inability to support themselves. The ones I know who are still out are focused on real estate work, not initiations. Obviously I don't know the vast majority of recerts, but assuming some are teaching as couples I just don't see how you get 155 active centers run by recerts.
Michael goes to great length to show that his area of 6 million is about average financially. The pop. of the US is about 50 times greater than his area, so if his area really is average then you could estimate total US initiations at 50 x 50 avg initiations, or 2550 total. Who knows if SE Florida is average as for as TM initiations go? I think Michael mentioned in the past that an MD and his wife were the recerts there -- if that's right then they would represent an above average quality level of intro lecturer, at least as important as the financial demographics. Of course, there would be no need for debate if the TMO released figures. Didn't someone post some info on the official number of inititations last year? Can anyone find this info?? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Dean Goodman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, in response to what Michael Dean > > Goodman wrote about the number of TM initiations in SE Florida and > > extrapolating them to make a guess at the number of initiations na- > > tionally: > > [big snip of Michael's original post] > > >>Toward the end of his post, Michael said: > > >>I don't have any reason to believe that my local area is all that > >>different from many other areas with recertified teachers around the > >>country. > > > > Vaj replies: > > > It would depend on the area. I have a home there and have lived on > > and off in the "Gold Coast" of FL for the last 30 years. > > > > It's one of the wealthiest areas of the country. > > OPENING REMARKS > > Dear Vaj, > > My general reaction to your clever but feeble attempt to negate my remarks, > to do your typical "one-upsmanship" routine, to create a cloud of words that > play upon misunderstanding and misdirection, to mislead people that the num- > ber of TM initiations is lower than I intelligently estimated in order to > promote your anti-TM agenda - Vaj I say to you, with a big smile on my face: > > Do you need reading glasses? > Or are you from another planet - and English is a remote language for you? > Or is your need to manifest negativity toward anything "TM" so intensely > gripping that you'll toss your integrity to the wind? > > Somehow you pretend you are "replying" to what I wrote, but it feels like > you didn't actually slow down, read it, and take in the obvious meaning. > You just used my remarks as a jumping off point to spread negativity, > doubt, and misinformation. You are one slippery, dark dude. > > > VAJ CLAIMS HE'S AN EXPERT ON SE FLORIDA - WRONG! > > Let's actually shine the light of awareness on your "reply": > > 1. You say that you've lived on and off in the "Gold Coast" of Florida > for the last 30 years. > > I assume you're saying that, in order to establish, as usual, that you are > more 'expert' on the topic at hand (the demographics of SE Florida) than I > or anyone else, even though I live here full-time, have for years, and I'm > a very intelligent person who networks here extensively, regularly travels > the whole area, publishes newsletters and creates events throughout the > area, and loves paying attention to socio-economic details. > > So you're going to contradict me, and "correct" me about local socio- > economics? This should be good for a few laughs... Let's have at it. ;) > > If we actually take a slightly deeper look at your words, you just appear > foolish, not 'expert'. This is what I notice about so many of your posts: > you have a veneer of expertise, an appearance of knowledge, but it's just > smoke and mirrors, just illusion. Poke a little into the words and there's > no substance there. "Where's the beef?" > > a. By your own words, you admit that you're a "snow bird", an on-and- > off northern visitor who dabbles at Florida life when it's cold up north, > and you admit you live on the "Gold Coast". I'm assuming that, like > many snow birds, especially those who live along the ocean, that maybe > you don't see much of the other 98% of SE Florida, and maybe you inter- > act quite a lot with other snow birds and not permanent Floridians... > because you seem so ignorant about SE Florida in your remarks here. > > > VAJ CLAIMS SE FLORIDA IS AMONG THE WEALTHIEST AREA'S IN THE U.S. - WRONG! > > b. My original post was very clear. I wrote about the initiations in a > big, 3 county metro area - Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties - > running at least 100 miles long by 15 miles wide (1500 sq. miles), encom- > passing 6 million people. You couldn't have missed that point. > > Yet, you cleverly tried to mislead people by pretending that I was talking > about the "Gold Coast" region - a very small, wealthy subsection of the > much bigger area that I clearly stated I was describing. The Gold Coast > is an expression used down here for an area of prime, super-high-priced > land running along or near the ocean, often filled with expensive high > rises or mansions, and the most liberal definition would include all the > land between the Intercoastal Waterway and the ocean, averaging about 1/2 > a mile wide for about 75 of those 100 miles (38 sq. miles). So you tried > to give a spin to your remarks that smoothly eliminated 98% of the people > here, and mis-portrayed SE Florida as "among the wealthiest in the nation", > when that actually applies only to the "Gold Coast" region - 2% of SE > Florida. For homework, just go to Google and look up the actual economic > facts about the WHOLE SE Florida area. For example, try this site, and > you'll find: > > http://www.bea.gov/bea/regional/reis/default.cfm?catable=CA1-3 > > > ACTUAL FIGURES FOR SE FLORIDA - VAJ IS PROVEN WRONG! > > 2004 figures: > > * Palm Beach County, FL average personal income: $44,500/year > * Broward County, FL average personal income: $34,000/year > * Miami-Dade County, FL average personal income: $29,000/year > * 3 county average $36,000/year > > Doesn't seem like SE Florida is "one of the wealthiest in the country" > does it? > > More facts: > > There are 70 major metro areas that have higher incomes in the U.S. > There are 5 major metro areas that have higher incomes in Florida alone. > There are 6 major metro areas that have higher incomes in Texas. > There are 13 major metro areas that have higher incomes in California. > There are 4 major metro areas that have higher incomes in Illinois. > There are 4 major metro areas that have higher incomes in New York. > > Those are just the five States that I took the time to look up. > You can do the work to look through other States. > > But it sure doesn't seem like SE Florida is "one of the wealthiest in > the country" does it? > > To bring it closer to home for Fairfield Lifers: > > * Jefferson County, IA average personal income: $28,200/year (20% less) > * Des Moines Metro, IA average personal income: $36,400/year (SAME!) > > Read that again, Vaj! The Des Moines metro area has the same average > personal income as the area I've been talking about in SE Florida. It > really doesn't seem like SE Florida is "one of the wealthiest in the > country" now does it? > > Palm Beach County average personal income, ranks 51st in US counties > Broward County average personal income, ranks 249th in US counties > Miami-Dade County average personal income, not in the top 250 counties > > Enough numbers - you get the picture. SE Florida as a whole is no different > than many major metro areas around the country. > > > Vaj claimed (about the Gold Coast that is 2% of SE Florida): > > It's one of the wealthiest areas of the country. > > Vaj, if you actually knew this area - SE Florida - as you brag you do, > or if you were even smart enough to look up a few figures before you > spouted off, you'd know that it does include some incredibly wealthy > areas (like the one you picked) and ALSO includes incredible poverty > (working-class ethnic minorities, illegal immigrants, poor retired old > folks - shacks, simple old homes, trailer parks, ticky-tack developments), > and most importantly a predominant middle-class. > > Interestingly, and completely contrary to the picture you tried to ar- > tificially paint, the people who start TM tend - according to the local > TM teachers and to their great surprise - NOT to be the wealthy, but in- > stead to be from the middle class here. > > > VAJ CLAIMS TM IS MARKETED IN SE FLORIDA TOWARD THE WEALTHIEST - WRONG! > > > Presumably this is the sector TM is marketed towards. > > Your presumption is simply wrong. > > Although I'm sure the local TM teachers would love to make inroads into > the top 2%, the wealthy, the trend-setters - just as they would in any > metro area (not just SE Florida), they do general public ads, give lec- > tures to whoever comes, and (as I pointed out above) are often surprised > that the wealthy are not the ones that learn. And they put their atten- > tion where the results are flowing. I said in my original post that the > people learning TM are NOT the wealthy; did you actually have the cour- > tesy to read my post and think about the meaning of my words before you > reacted? Do you question my integrity, or think I'm lying? Or do you > just want to project your own presumptions, dark misinformation campaign, > puffed-up ego posturing, etc.? > > > and only 30 a year are taking it in that area? That's a very small > > amount. > > > MICHAEL CLAIMED 30 INITIATIONS FOR SE FLORIDA LAST YEAR - ACTUALLY IT'S 50 > > Actually I was wrong, on deeper and more careful questioning of the > local TM teachers tonight, I discovered that about 50 have started in > this area (the 3 counties) in the past year. > > THREE APPROACHES TO THE SAME SIMPLE FACT > > Three people could react three different ways to this fact and say: > > 1. Wow! 50 people started TM! Great news for the TM Movement. > > 2. OK, 50 people started TM. That's the fact. Whatever. > > 3. Aha! ONLY 50 people started TM. The TM Movement is failing, > it's on its last legs, it's a sinking ship... > > Same fact - 50 people started locally. > > But one's emotional interpretation depends on what spin you're trying to > give it - what point you're trying to prove. "The intellect supports > the heart"; we interpret our perceptions (the "evidence") to support > our deep beliefs, our deep needs, our deep constrictions. Vaj, your deep > emotional constrictions are just so transparent from your actions/words. > You can quote esoteric scripture, and drop names of famous teachers, and > play games with words, and practice spiritual one-upsmanship, and pre- > tend to be a good ole boy, and fool some of the beginners, and get occa- > sional strokes from the disenchanted... but as long as you are this grip- > ped by darkness, by anger, by the need to put down, by the need to mis- > lead, by the forces of confusion - you are lost. > > > REASONABLE ESTIMATE: 7750 PEOPLE LEARNED TM IN THE U.S. THIS PAST YEAR > > Back to our main story: > In my original post (and now amended to use the higher initiation num- > bers), I went on to take this fact (number of local initiations) and ex- > pand upon it: 50 initiations here times 155 similar TM-teaching loca- > tions around the country (see www.tm.org) = 7750 people starting TM in > the U.S. this past year (not counting the black market initiations). > > > VAJ CAN'T HANDLE HEARING THAT FACT WITHOUT FLIPPING OUT > > Oh, but that's the VERY POINT you cleverly attempted to undermine by > this slick shift of focus to the unrepresentative Gold Coast, and by > this misdirected assumption about failure in marketing to the wealthy. > Very transparent, very sad in what it says about your ability to handle > information that goes against this deep emotional mission that you have. > According to the main thrust of your posts over the years: Maharishi > is nasty, is deluded, is harming people, is violating the spiritual > traditions, is violating natural law... basically he's demonic. And > it's hard for you to put him down decisively based on his big, abstract > global goals and achievements - but a nice simple, numerical concept > like "numbers of TM initiations", now there's something you can easily > get down with. So when I point out a significantly increased number > of initiations compared to a few years ago, it's like cognitive disso- > nance for you, it doesn't "fit" with your mission, your world view. > So you quickly have to find some way to: > > a. Push that information away, belittle it, create doubt > b. Make it unrepresentative of other areas of the country > c. And even if it's true, give it a spin that it's a sign of failure > of the TM Movement. > > a. The info won't go away; it's accurate. 50 TM initiations this year > in these 3 counties. > b. I've very clearly demonstrated that this area is average, is repre- > sentative of many other areas where TM is currently being taught. > c. The number of TM initiations is NOT even a mild indicator of the > success or failure of Maharishi or the TM Movement, and hasn't > been for about 30 years. > > > 800% INCREASE IN TM INITIATIONS IN SE FLORIDA UNDER RECERT TEACHERS > > More facts: > From my personal conversations with the previous local TM teacher, > Mike Scozarri, who'd been covering this same area for years before > the recertified TM teachers came, and from observations of and feed- > back about his events (lectures, group program...), he appeared to > be teaching maybe half a dozen people a year in this same area. And > he had big advantages - he'd lived here for decades, he claimed he had > taught thousands here. So what do you make of it that these newcomers > come in like carpetbaggers, strangers to the area, no big network, and > teach 8 times what he did. That's the fact - draw whatever conclusion > you need to in order to support your deep feelings. > > > WHO CARES ABOUT THE NUMBER OF TM INITIATIONS ANYWAY? > > Notice that, in my original post, I took approach #2. I reported the > facts, said it didn't much matter to me what the initiation numbers are, > said that I don't think it's at all important how many people are start- > ing TM (nor do the recertified teachers, nor does Maharishi!) Yet it's > fascinating how you and others try to judge his (or the TM Movement's) > "success" by initiation numbers. You are so stuck in the Phase I of the > TM Movement, the one that lasted from the 1950's through 1976, so stuck > in the past. We're way into Phase III now. "Something is happening, > but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?" - Bob Dylan > > > VAJ AND OTHER TM MOVEMENT CRITICS STUCK IN THE PAST > > To get up to speed, please actually read my old post, message #90043, > "TM Course Fees and the Real Goals of the Movement", where I quoted > Maharishi's explanation of this, and shared my take on his reasoning. > The last time I posted it you actually proudly sent a post declaring > that you were skipping it because it required too much reading. You > said you were going to wait for "the Reader's Digest version". Maybe > you should start reading again. I don't think it's over your head, > or uses words that are too big. > > Go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/90043 > > Even though I said initiation numbers aren't important to me, you still > felt like you had to do your disinformation routine here, take my words > and shift them and put your spin on them. You are really gripped by this > anti-TM constriction, aren't you? From watching your posts for years, > I see how caught up you are in your anti-TM stuff - you are as gripped, > deluded, or addicted as you claim that the TM true-believers are. You > are just stuck in the other direction. Good luck extricating yourself. > > > VAJ'S DISINGENUOUS CLOSING - ATTEMPTS TO RESTATE MISINFORMATION, > CREATE CONTROVERSY, DIVERT ATTENTION FROM THE FACTS > > > I would guess comparison to SSRS's technique would be apropos here- > > Vaj, you're not "guessing" at all; you are consciously looking for ano- > ther place to express some negativity, you are just trying to create > false division, to play "Let's You and Him Fight". Obviously it's NOT > "apropos" - it IS part of your obsessive dance. > > > how many do you think he's initiating in the same time period? > > Since it's not very significant how many the TM Movement initiated, > why would it be important to compare that to how many another move- > ment initiated? And the techniques are different, the effects are > different, the intention may even be different. It's just a red > herring; it's another diversion to shift people's attention away > from the info I was asking them to focus on, which is so threatening > to your anti-TM worldview. > > Vaj - write your own posts. Don't piggyback on mine; don't play > your attention-shifting, veil-of-confusion tricks around my words. > > > I would guess many more, maybe hundreds of times more. > > Since we've clearly seen above that things which you assert that > you know as "facts" are often untrue and deceptive, why would we > take your mere guess seriously? Why don't you (a) actually find > out the number of his initiations; (b) find out what's being counted > in those numbers (breathing, meditation, etc.); (c) consider whether > it's even a useful or meaningful bit of comparison to spend your or > our attention on; (d) and go have some fun instead. > > > Unless the other recerts have a similar demographic area in terms > > of wealth, > > So this piece of misinformation about the "special wealth" of this > area that you tried to slip in has been completely debunked above, > and needs no more comment. It's just nonsense. > > > I'd guess you're right, the same or less, depending on demographics. > > Again, that sneaky slippery twisty use of language! > We've got to watch you like a hawk. > You say "I guess you're right..." and then follow it with a complete > misstatement of my words "the same or less". And it's obvious that > you're smart enough that you know you're doing this; it's not an acci- > dent. You cleverly appear to agree with something I said ("I guess > you're right...") and then slide right into saying your own contrasting > conclusion ("or less"). You know that I didn't say that. Don't try to > commandeer my words and shift them for your purpose. > > > ALL I AM SAYING: GIVE FACTS A CHANCE - > APPROXIMATELY 7750 PEOPLE LEARNED TM IN THE U.S. OVER THE PAST YEAR > > I'm making the reasonable assumption, based on my knowledge of this > SE Florida area, and on my knowledge of a number of metro areas around > the country, and on the qualities of our local teachers, that our yearly > initiation numbers in this area would be about average for other teach- > ing centers in the country. And then I'm suggesting that anyone could > arrive at a reasonable approximation of national TM initiation figures > by doing some simple, non-controversial math: multiplying our yearly > figure in SE Florida (50 initiations) times the number of similar TM Cen- > ters with recertified teachers around the country - 155 according to the > center list at the TM website (http://www.tm.org) = 7750 people taught. > > > Otherwise, probably less > > > > It looks like TM is truly on the way out. > > That reveals something about you; you chose to interpret the fact, > the number of yearly initiations here, via method #3 - finding the > negative in it. But we knew you'd do that - you have to. > > > Rather sad, > > First, I don't think anyone actually believes that you're sad. > You are so hostile, so antagonistic, so looking for any little nega- > tivity about TM or Maharishi to amplify, spin, fly off on. You seem > anything but sad - that seems disingenuous. > > > but thanks for the update Michael. > > Thanks for the opportunity to bring light into your attempt at darkness > and confusion and misinformation. > > Namaste, > > Michael > > PARA - THE CENTER FOR REALIZATION > Michael Dean Goodman, Ph.D., D.D., Director > Boca Raton (Palm Beach County) Florida > 561-350-3930 (messages received 24 hours a day) * [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Spiritual guide (ashtanga yoga/meditation, tantra, vedanta, ayur veda...) > Counselor * Author * Speaker/Educator > Satsang * Workshops & Retreats * Classes * Private Educational Sessions > Clients and programs throughout the United States, Europe, and India > Working in person or by phone > Free initial consultation to discuss your needs and goals > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! 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