--- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > http://www.tinyurl.com/yvkdc3
> > 
> > Important to read the earlier part of the exchange
> > to get a proper perspective on Harris's response.
> > He's just as much of a fanatic as the fundamentalists
> > he rants about.  Sullivan made excellent points that
> > Harris doesn't know how to respond to, and it's sent
> > him into a frustrated rage.
> 
> Kinda like Jim Flanegin lately, only coherent. :-)

That quip aside, I just thought I'd mention that 
Andrew Sullivan's short response to Harris' rant
(and yes, that's what it is) kinda nails the issue
as far as I'm concerned:

Give me today to address his many good (and 
bad) points. But something strikes me reading 
the many emails you have sent. They fall into 
two categories: one batch lamenting his 
contradictions, intolerance and dogmatism; 
the other insisting that he has cleaned my 
clock in the argument. There are few emails 
taking a middle position, which suggests we 
are talking past each other. I'm going to 
try and amend that in my next post. It may 
be, however, that the very nature of the 
subject renders consensus or even clarity 
impossible. Those with faith and those 
without it actually read the dialogue 
differently. I think we can do better 
than that - and I hope to clarify more 
in my next installment.

The "middle-way" readers have it right, IMO. 
What is going on is two people -- who see the 
world completely differently, wearing two 
completely different states of attention, 
each bringing to the table completely different
sets of assumptions -- trying to have a discussion
and failing miserably.

*Both*, IMO, are so attached to their assumptions
that they cannot possibly challenge them. Instead,
they argue for the assumptions' correctness, 
using the most persuasive arguments they can come
up with, trying to "win," to convince the other
of their position's correctness. And they're both
surprised and confounded when the other person is 
*not* persuaded by these arguments, which seem to
them self-evident, beyond refute.

I think it's a situation we're familiar with here
on Fairfield Life. :-)

People get into arguments about stuff they cannot
possibly know the "truth" of, only what they tend
to believe about it. And because we're dealing
with matters of faith or the lack thereof, each
of the parties in one of these debates brings
certain assumptions to the debate table, in the
form of the arguments they use, but more import-
antly in the form of their current state of 
attention. That state of attention, and the 
assumptions about life that one *has* to make
about life when "wearing" that state of attention
(because that is the very nature of that state
of attention) color everything that the person
sees -- in their own arguments and in the other
person's. Their state of attention acts as a 
"filter," a way of parsing the words that they
speak and that the other person speaks. 

And the result is often *just* like the exchange
so far between Harris and Sullivan -- two people 
talking *past* each other, each blabbering on
and on, thinking they're "winning" the argument
but both losing badly, because at the end of the
exchange both are in exactly the same state of
attention they started in.



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