--- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I only spent a short time in India with MMY. I agree with part of > what you wrote. I think you mean the "empirical" movement hit the > West harder and I agree that it hit there harder, first. India is > catching up fast now.
Yes, but don't forget, we are talking of a time 50 years back. Smaller and more conservative middleclass then. > Rural India is as full of miracle stories as > rural Mexico. And because India has such a large superstitious rural > population it is easy to forget the middle class types who view > miracle stories with the same suspicion many Westerners do. I have > heard the same skepticism of Sai Baba's tricks from Indians. They > have the perspective that miracles may be possible but they are > skeptical of people cashing in on these claims. The scepticism about Sai Baba is definitely there in India, as there have been relevatory videos (still millions believe in him). But I was citing Shirdi Baba who is dead since long, and he was a great miracle man. Most spiritual inclined Indians do not doubt him. >Judging all Indian > culture by what uneducated Indians believe doesn't do the whole range > of Indian perspectives justice. I also detect a wry humor about all > these claims from Middle Class Indians. Most of them have seen more > spiritual scams in their youth then we will in our lifetime. That may well be. My point though is: Belief in miracles and the exhibition of Siddhis by saints is standard in a conservative religious milieu in India. It still is and it was even more so in 1952-56 > I just met a man who met Maharsishi in 1954-58, before he came to the > west, and he attributed what he called a miracle to Maharishi (In this > case its up to interpretation to call it a miracle, Maharshi caught a > plane in Madras even though he was 2 hours late - and so was the > plane. One might call this also a coincidence or simply sychronocity). > Anyway, for him this was a proof that he is a great divine master. > > Me: I caught a late plane once. If you fly a lot this will happen. My point here was not the happening itself, it could be easily explained as coincidence, but simply the fact that for this man it was proof of the spiritual magnitude of Maharishi. For me meeting such a person was as such more interesting than the story. He was an authentic witness of the impact Maharishi was having at the conception of TM. > (He also narrated that Maharishi initiated 200 people on that day, > announced himself 3 hours before to arrive with a party of 15 people > and that no rooms were there, when he came just some people moved out > and the rooms were there - he was a hotel owner at the time. He still > feels devoted to Maharishi. It is interesting to meet people from this > time. > > Me: It happens all the time. How come miracle stories don't involve > the curing of cancer or AIDS? They do don't they? Again my topic is not the miracles as such, but the belief in them. My point: To believe in siddhis or hint at them was something expected from a great saint. Its likely Maharishi and Guru Dev believed in this themselves. They were not your modern day Indian middle class sceptic. Therefore I don't see here an attempt to treachery or go for the gullible westerner. Anyway, this was found in the early texts that were conceived in India. There wasn't any idea of the west yet in Maharishis 1952 introduction, when Guru Dev came to Delhi > Maharishi had a meditation hall constructed in this place where > I and several friends went out to meditate sometimes, also friends who > had no TM-connection felt it was a good place to meditate. There is a > tree in front of the hall - Maharishi built the hall near the tree as > he felt it was supportive of meditation - another extraphysical feat.) > > Me: I'm not sure what is being claimed here. The belief that a tree has a positive effect on meditation is certainly outside of your western rationalism. The story proofs that Maharishi believed in it and thus wasn't a rationalist. If Maharishi was a rationalist and would tell people about siddhis, he would be deceiving them consciously. But of course he isn't > When I was in Gujarat, somebody told me of a lake where at Shivaratri > Sadhus jump in to never come out again - they simply disappear. > Obviously there are million onlookers. I was told that the whole lake > was searched through by researchers and they didn't find anything > (holes to hide, corpses etc) This is not to say that I can attest any > of this, or that there couldn't be any rationalist explanation, but it > tells you that miracle-stories and religious life are closely > interwoven in India, and certainly you are looking at this topic with > a western cultural lense of an already rationalised religion. > > Me: Nicely put. There are conditions under which you could test such > a physical claim. I'll be no one is jumping in to impose the kind of > test conditions one would need. It would cause a riot. > > I agree with your point about how superstitious many Indians are. I > don't think this is representative of the most well educated Indians. > In my short time in India I was exposed to plenty of Indians who > viewed the whole "miracle yogi cashing in on Western dollars" in a > cynical way. At the time I was offended at their lack of spiritual > insight. Now I see things differently. I also agree with your > correction of my use of "mainstream religious types". I may mean > moderately religious people. I've met plenty of Indians whose Grama > is very religious and they just go through the motions to appease the > matriarch. There is a lot of lip service paid to miracles but when it > comes to them parting with their own money they get skeptical fast. > We have a pretty big Indian population here in D.C. It seems like > there is a natural skepticism among business or scientifically trained > Indians concerning miracles and famous yogis with western disciples. Naturally the selection of NRI's will be very different than the selection of RI's. And there is widespread scepticism among tradionally inclined believers on anyone 'cashing in'. That would be about Maharishi selling siddhis or meditation as such. Among the traditionally inclined. That is: Traditionalist: not asking money, sidhis and miracle exhibiting > true saint Modern middle class Indian, spiritually inclined: ready to spend money for courses, going to Gurus which appear in TV and have big classes (like SSRS, or Jagi Vasudev, but also Ammaji) Miracles not really necessary, 'scientific' or modernistic explanations of spiritual concepts. > Even when they are practicing Hindus, they often view guys like MMY > like I view Benny Hinn. So I think there is a range of perspectives > on how they view miracle claims by people cashing in on them. Indian > culture has a rich history in wisdom about human nature in all of its > pros and cons. Reading their scriptures in a secular light is another > way to enjoy their insights. > > Thanks for joining in I appreciate your perspective. There are of course also pure sceptics in India. Don't forget there is still today a huge Maoist movement in India, and for them religion is opium. And probably all shades inbetween. When I was there last month, I met an indian middle class man from Bombay in one of Ramanas caves at Arunachala (mango groove cave). He first told me about the significance of the cave, that Ramana stayed there in the summer month when it was too ot at Virupaksha. He asked me what I was doing, and I told him that I am with Mother Meera. Then he told me he had participated at a huge camp with 8000 people in Rishikesh with SSRS, and that he was initiated by Ammaji with a mantra, and he was also eager to see MM (which he did). It ended up that he showed me pictures of different saints on his Nokia organizer. I was quite amused when he started to lecture to the local young Sadhu in the cave about fate and opportunities to learn, well in positivistic new age slang. Well, I thought, this is modern India. Btw, Narayan Ayer, the man who met Maharishi around 1956 was also quite positive about SSRS. He said that the Maharishi had selected him in Bangalore because he knew Sanskrit well. He felt that he was continuing Maharishis work of spreading meditation, and that I think rather well. When I was in Madras, I saw overlifesize posters of him on the streets making advertisment for the indian Yahoo answers.
