Quick comment below: ** --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > ME: The fact that any discussion is going on at all seems like a good > thing to me. I certainly am enjoying it. The quality of the his post > is just above the "you are a poopy pants" level, but perhaps we can > collectively raise the bar here. I don't think anyone here wants this > person to stop doing MMY's programs, so we might be able to have a > discussion without the same need for personal attacks. I'll bet I > wont be able to be pure in this regard...but I'll give it a shot. > > > HIM: Doubt, Disappointment and Rejection are most damaging to the > nervous system (Maharishi said). > > ME: Without giving any content to what is doubted, but criticizing the > mental state itself, it can be applied to anything. Let's apply it to > the doubt this person is experiencing concerning Rick (and others) > sincerity concerning their changing perspective on MMY and his > teaching. If we take MMY at his word then this person must stop > doubting that we are being sincere and since it is so open ended, he > should even stop doubting our conclusions because of the harm it will > cause his nervous system. > > But this is not really what is meant. It is only stated this way to > avoid how it sounds when we spell out the actual meaning as he is > using it here. What must not be doubted is MMY's intentions or his > teaching specifically. What must be rejected is any other teaching > other than MMY's. > > As far as not being disappointed, WTF? Disappointment is just an > emotion often caused by the gap between our goals and our > achievements. It helps us know when we are on track. The only way to > avoid it is to lower your goals so far that you always achieve them. > As far as being disappointed in other people's behavior, this is > caused by our expectation of good from someone and there lack of > living up to what we expect from them. I would rather start by giving > a person an excellent reputation to live up to and then let the chips > fall where they may. But if you see everyone as a self-serving > asshole you might be able to avoid ever being disappointed in another > person I guess. (it sounds damaging to the nervous system) > > HIM: In considering the intrapsychic mechanics of what took place in > Rick (and others) I would guess (because, of course, I don't know) the > real issue with Rick and other seekers (I would classify them as > seekers again, as they were before they had Maharishi), is that it all > began with doubt (that sprung up due to expectation)--which led to > disappointment, and in Ricks case being asked essentially to leave the > movement--rejection. > > ME: Demoted to a "seeker"! No longer a "knower". All because Rick > expected something which caused doubt leading to disappointment. (I'm > guessing that these ideas comes from John Gray.) Although he tries to > position himself as a humble person: "I would guess (because, of > course I don't know)" this is just spin. This is the guy who already > demoted you to "seeker". > > > HIM: A rational, evolved, loving, soul like Ricky > > ME: The condescension begins in earnest now. This is his first use of > the diminutive form of your name. > > HIM: is not going to go smash windows in the dome or lead a march > against the movement--So, what to do then with the hurt, anger, > frustration? Gotta go some where--(that's the law of dynamics--and > psychodynamics--the energy in a system must express its self in the > system--impress its influence on the system) so it gets sublimated > into a "rational," "open" discussion on essentially, the validity of > Maharishi. Actually, it is quite aggressive in nature, but, the > attack is conducted by the frontal cortex--not the limbic system > (which is the primitive lizard brain) So it appears reasoned, open, > and flexible. In actuality it is an "as if" debate. One appears as > if he is not angry, frustrated, rejected and vengeful and attacking. > One appears "as if" he wants to openly and lovingly discuss the > issue--but that is the filter of the frontal cortex! Anger, > aggression and vengeance are the underlying dynamics. > > > ME: So although there is no evidence for Rick being angry, > frustrated, rejected, vengeful and attacking, he knows this a priori > about Rick. He knows the underlying dynamics. The science-y sounding > terms are all just window dressing on the "poopy pants" personal > attack. None of the ideas you may have about MMY are being discussed. > This is because you are acting out of anger, aggression and > vengeance, so no discussion of ideas is necessary. You are a person > with "bad" emotions so your ideas don't have to be considered. It > sure beats actually discussing any real points of view doesn't it? > Just attack the person rather then the argument. It is so convenient. > It is interesting how people love to throw in scientific terms as if > this gives their attack more legitimacy. 4 out of 5 movement > scientist surveyed think Rick is wrong! I love how he turns Rick's > desire for rational open discussions into an aggressive act! > > > HIM: Patanjali does endorse in the Yoga sutras, "any reliable > meditation." He therefore give his blessings on different forms of > meditation--So it seems to me, that when we get to Brahman there will > be a large number of saints somewhere in the Akash that have arrived > there from a variety of means--some faster--some slower--I mean > everyone we know of who got enlightened got there by a slightly > different path (Maharaja, Ramakrishna, the Buddha, etc.) > > ME: He could have dropped the whole poopy pants part and just gone > with this. Why not drop his damaging doubts about Rick and avoid all > the anger, aggression and vengeance and just give Rick credit for > finding his own way to enlightenment? Because the statement in the > beginning was not against doubt at all. It was against questioning > MMY specifically as being a perfect, special, super-guy. Nothing > short of unquestioning obedience to him is tolerated. This guy is a > good son and you are a bad son of the perfect daddy. But he missed an > opportunity to express acceptance and love for a person who is finding > their own personal way through life. It would have reflected so much > better on him and his teacher. > > HIM: But, I don't know anybody who got there by bashing their previous > master and trying to get others to join them. > > ME: Didn't Buddha reject his master on the path of austerity, or did > Herman Hesse make that up? Here is the real crime Rick. You are > messing with the PR image of MMY as perfect. This is the unpardonable > sin you are guilty of. You are being "doubted", not just specifically > for certain ideas, but as a person. You are now reduced to a group of > negative emotions that you don't even have to manifest in any actions > to be accused of. What used to be the innocent sharing of knowledge > and perspective when you had the "right" thoughts, is now a sinister > attempt to get others to join you on your dark path. I caught a lot > of the same flack that I had not only left the movement, but was vocal > about my disagreements which F's up the PR. It hurts sales man! This > is the unpardonable sin. > > Because there is no mutual respect on the onset there is no real > ability to discuss ideas. What he will focus on is YOU and your > supposed personal faults rather than anything you are saying. You > must be discredited as a source of anything useful because of your bad > emotions. > > Seekers are honest. Seekers are the people I can relate to best. > Knowers, who insist that I don't express doubts, boor me to tears. > >
**snip to end** Curtis, excellent analysis and I agree with you that the 'discussion' itself is a good thing. I mean, it seems like such a unique relationship -- the guru/disciple one -- and more peculiar yet, the guru/former-disciple relationship, or the false-guru/former-disciple-now-disciple-of-better-guru one, etc.). I don't know if FFL is the only forum that lets everyone who might be a member of some subset of the guru/disciple relationship (above), speak, discuss and argue their position, but the fact that it does is fantastic. And for me, extremely valuable, as I'm sure it is for others. Very cool. Thanks. Marek
