On Jun 7, 2007, at 10:59 PM, emptybill wrote:
>Vaj: >In some practitioners of the TMSP, what yogins are finding is >exacerbation of the karmic nadis and entrapment in non-bindu >resolving routes. Left unresolved and not re-routed to the central >channel the prognosis is for lifetimes of suffering, and a downward >turn on the wheel of samsara is almost guaranteed. Empty: Perhaps I'm confused. Who are these "yogins" you are talking about – the SP practitioners themselves or some other practitioner (of something or other)?
I've heard a number of Buddhist yogins talk of it, seen it myself in a number of people. If you're in FF you could meet Joan Harrigan as she lectures there.
>Vaj: >It was an important part of my training in both the Hindu tantras >but especially in the Buddhist anuttara-tantras, where the original >versions of hatha-yoga are still intact. Empty: So you and BillyG are attempting to meta-critique TM and TMSP using nadi-prana theory from ascending/descending prana-yogas, one Buddhist and one Hindu?
Just a passing remark really and an upnote for those damaged from TMSP in particular that there is hope, healing and unity possible.
>Vaj: >One of the things I appreciated about Swami Rama's version of "TM" >was after mantra-diksha and the gap was "experienced" they were >taught how to make the karmic-prana empty into the central channel. >His institute really trained people to become yogis. Empty: Perhaps what I'm really missing is why you are using extra-contextual theories without establishing their proper role relative to TM/TMSP or even that these various theories/practices have any relevance to our common experience in TM practice? Nadi-Prana yogas and the central channel are described as special practices for developing specific results. They are not considered necessary for generating profound realizations nor are they universally sponsored by most practice lineages in Buddhism, much less Hinduism. The language of the "gap" you are using here is one way to describe an experience of the indivisible matrix of mind – also know as the four parts without three. However, gap language is not really used to indicate transcendence during TM style meditations, as you seem to be doing. So what gives?
A number of long term practitioners have been damaged by TMSP, so therefore it's worth discussing and/or mentioning that there are solutions for such people.
In a tantric path that uses mantra, it would be unusual not to see such practices as part of the full path. Danger can arise, in some people, when using watered down, incomplete commercialized teachings lead to imbalanced arisings and there are no resources available to remedy the situation. Apparently this has a become an issue in TMSP practitioners, particularly long term practitioners.
Since I'm new to the forum, I may have just missed the clarifying insights you presented in former days about these ideas. On the other hand, I did read some of your posts in the past and if my memory serves, you seem to be a vajrayana triumphalist. I could be wrong of course, and if so, no doubt you'll correct me in some generous and splendid manner!
I see similar paths in a number of traditions, vajrayana is one of those. But it is just one.
Being a broken, old man, all of it could just be my dim memory. Toothless and bent over, tottering from one step to the other, I'm afraid I can't even find my way when I'm sitting down. Help me Obewan! Now, staring at the blue glow from the monitor in the next room, I finally realize it is not really the moon. Didn't your Buddha warn you about shouting out your closed-fist teachings around people like me?
My Buddha? Garab Dorje said that?
