Hey, Curtis!
Yes, I feel the same way. It's been a great pleasure; these conversations with you and with Barry have made me look more closely at a lot of things, particularly the issue of balance and integrity. On further reflection, I see that from another angle I am yet again advocating the inward movement of transcendence, -- pulling back from our projected discontents "out there" to their inward core "in here;" i/o/w moving from victimization and addiction to empowerment and sobriety. One of my favorite modern psychologist/therapists, by the way, is one that Tom T. introduced me to -- Anne Wilson Schaef. Her books, "When Society Becomes an Addict" and especially "Escape >From Intimacy: The Pseudo-Relationship Addictions - Untangling the "Love" Addictions, Sex, Romance, Relationships," beautifully unfolded the dynamics of Brahman as sobriety, without ever mentioning Brahman :-) Happy Independence Day! *L*L*L* Rory --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Rory, > > This interaction including Marek and Turq's comments on it has been > one of the most fruitful for me on FFL. I want to start by thanking > you for taking the time for making such a detailed response. I think > I understand your points better and you drew good lines where we > disagree. But the whole spirit of maintaining rapport that your post > maintains is something I really appreciate. Since we were discussing > feelings a bit, I felt respected and that you genuinely desire to > understand what I am saying. Very cool and thank you for that. > > I think the psychological model that you have found useful in your own > life is being applied to mine. In my view it does not apply but you > may be seeing something else. I do recognize that we all have blind > spots which is what makes posting here so valuable. I have learned a > lot here. > > When I left MMY it was not out of being disillusioned or feeling > cheated by him. It was a continuation of my interest in discovery > that lead me outside his system. If I felt hurt it was from my > previous movement friends not understanding that I had not turned into > the devil, but was positively enjoying other ways to view the > experiences in meditation. It was naive of me to think it was possible > to maintain discussions since I had viewed people who left the > movement as "negative" when I was into it myself. Through the years > those friendships got replaced and I don't feel hurt by their > rejection. It was the only move they could make and stay as devoted > as they were (and some are). > > The reason I am not hurt my MMY is because he took me on a fantastic > ride. He was a bit manipulative and was "using" us, but this is not > so uncommon for ambitious older people exploiting innocent youth for > their own benefit. I give him a pass that he probably believes most > of his own rap, but I don't view him as the most honest guy in the > world or saintly in any way. I don't think he has much human > compassion or capacity to respect and love other people as equals. I > suspect this is a disorder. So I don't think he has much of a choice > in how he operates. Should I be hurt if, as a frog, I get stung by > the scorpion riding on my back? > > So I have made my peace and mostly enjoy the good things from my past > experiences in the movement. It made me a hell of a lecturer with so > much public speaking experience and that has benefited the way I > present my music act. I am very glad that I spent the years rounding, > so I have a grasp of what people are talking about with how compelling > mystical experiences are. Posting here with people with all sorts of > versions of relationship with our past movement lives has been really > healing for me. > > I want to address one point you made in your post directly: > > ME: > My criticism of MMY is not from feeling hurt by him. It is > because I think he is wrong. > > Rory: > Yes, you do think he is wrong, and that you know better, and I am > absolutely certain that you are right; that that is true. Our > conceptual understanding/framework of what MMY has said is absolutely > false. There's a simpler truth you have been articulating, > where "enlightenment" and "ignorance" are utterly irrelevant, > and "spiritual experience" itself is irrelevant, and your own self > knows your own self best, and so on. These are some of the keynotes > of "Brahman," which he also has talked about, as much as one can talk > about the utterly indescribable :-) > > Me: I don't believe that I know better than MMY concerning human > consciousness. I have found some models more useful than his, but I > am far from understanding human consciousness. I consider the > contribution of traditional practices to be valuable. I think there > are important contributions from more modern sources. This is a life > long fascination for me, and although I don't consider Vedic knowledge > in any form to be a complete understanding of human consciousness, I > respect its contribution to man's thought. I think there are probably > some more intellectual presentations and less commercially oriented > ones than MMY's, but his was the one I studied in depth. In any case I > don't resent that I view his perspective as flawed. It was a stepping > stone for me and I really enjoyed my life in the movement and was > satisfied with my own experiences while in TM. I just view them > differently now. > > Oh one more: > > RORY: And I with you. FWIW, to me you are showing many of the earmarks > > of "Brahman" -- but I really couldn't care less, and I suspect you > > probably couldn't either. Great joke, isn't it?! > > ME: I may not have gained the "enlightened" state that I dreamed of in > my youth, but growing older has given me all the self knowledge I need > to enjoy a great life. I believe that the perspective I sought in my > teens and 20's was really just the centered feeling of self > actualization that years of living provide. I am at home in the world > and at peace with myself as a non cosmically conscious, ordinary guy. > It is more than enough and I am grateful for it. > > Thanks for keeping the perspective insights flowing Rory. I > appreciate your openness and ability to discuss these topics in detail > in a friendly way. Finally, any Borat reference makes me go "Wawa weee > wa! > > >
