Thanks for responding Turq. Pinning it all on Rory isn't completely fair since it is a quality in many posts as you mention. I had a nice little self-reflection on whether or not I was using my own self admitted "commonness" in the same way! It is an imposition of my own values onto someone else's experience so it is susceptible to the same quality I am discussing. But my appeal to viewing us all as equally ordinary as humans is not some special insight I have gained by being special in any way. Many people on earth view others this way, it is a very ordinary egalitarian perspective on people. Christ didn't teach me this so I am following a path of divine love for mankind, it isn't based on years of meditation or contemplation of man's place. It just seems to be a baseline fact of our existence. (self-evident...not!) Just my choice of point of view.
I was having dinner with a guy after busking on Sunday. He had arrived on his boat to the docks where I perform and he has been a fan of my music for years. He projects a lot onto me about how I am living a life he wished he "could". He has a bunch of kids, a nasty divorce, and a high paying TV network job, so he feels trapped with his life. His solution seems to be to stay very drunk a lot. We had a pretty insightful discussion of values over dinner in between his challenges to arm wrestle him! A bit oafish, but interesting enough to be worth the trouble. He spent a lot of time trying to contextualize my life with his. I really couldn't relate to his need. I don't think I am superior in any way to guys who bust their butts for the big bucks, especially for their kids. I am not a suit-hater like some flannel-clad refugee from the Seattle grunge era. I think we are all struggling with the exact same human condition which is facing mortality (our own and loved ones) in the face of uncertain knowledge about ultimate reality. He made some attempts to assert that Christ had taken care of all that for us but, as you can imagine, it didn't exactly get too far with me. So thanks for not seeing it as Rory bashing. I look forward to his response to it and how he relates to this perspective if he chooses to respond. I may be completely full of it, but I do have a certain confidence that everyone else is just like me, doing the best they can with the weird mix of genetics and circumstances that brought us to where we are in our lives. We are not only just bozos on this bus, we are each capable of wisdom and insights. --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues" > <curtisdeltablues@> wrote: > > > > Rory: > > > "Right, you didn't offer me that marvelous image to play with > > > -- but you *did* (in my reality anyhow) offer me your pain, > > > which was all I really wanted. To whatever degree You and I > > > are separate, my heartfelt thanks to You :-)" > > > > Me: I have been enjoying lurking I have been thinking something > > about how you write that I would like to run by you Rory. I > > think you are using language that very carefully does separate > > you from the person you are responding to. Almost to a post there > > is an assertion of your separateness, specialness. I think it is > > very important for you to present yourself as having a special > > relationship with the world. > > Very, very interesting insight, Curtis. > > Now that you've mentioned it, "We're all one" *is* a > putdown compared to "We're all separate and equal." > > > I offer you another option and perspective for consideration. > > We may all actually be the same with regard to our states of > > consciousness. What you are describing in sometimes Baroque > > detail may just be an affectation of your use of words to > > describe states that everyone else is living in without needing > > all the descriptions. If you really want a unitive experience, > > I suggest trying out the following premise: You and I are > > actually the same. No states of awakening separate us. > > Neither of us are on any continuum of awareness before or > > after each other. We are both just simply human with the same > > limitations and capacities. Then go to the supermarket and look > > at everyone that same equal way. Everyone is just equally human > > and not on a path of "awakening". Just folks. > > > > I hope this wont be taken as an attack although it is a judgment > > I am making. (BTW nuts are actually very hard to kick so their > > use in fights is really overrated!) I think we have established > > enough rapport in previous posts to actually explore this topic > > a bit. I suspect Turq will have some perspective to share on this. > > He does, but not in any "pile on Rory" sense. I honestly > have never thought about this subject this way, in terms > of "language as ranking system," but now that you've > brought it up, it's a *very* interesting way of seeing > things. > > > In my daily life I notice people's language as an attempt to > > assert a ranking. It is a version of monkey oneupmanship. As > > a performing artist I must push some people's buttons because > > I get a regular stream of guys (always guys) who feel the need > > to try to find out what I make as a performer. It seems important > > for them to make sure I am not making much money while having > > this much fun. They ask a serious of roundabout questions to > > determine that even though they hate their jobs (their words) > > at least they are making more money. > > Boy, have I seen that. > > Similarly, have you ever known guys who feel compelled > to hit on every woman they encounter, *especially* the > girlfriends or dates of the other guys? Ranking system. > > > Here on FFL it seems that there is another ranking system in > > place between guys. An enlightenment-O-meter. > > Also a knowledge-O-meter. "My understanding of this > esoteric scripture is superior to yours." There are > a few posts lately that seem to come with a measuring > tape attached, with which to measure the dick of the > person being addressed and compare its length to that > of the poster. :-) > > > It isn't easy for guys to drop all the affections of our > > primate politics. But it is sometimes an option when chosen. > > Are you willing to actually see me as an equal? Completely > > equal? Not in some cosmic perspective way that you > > unequally comprehend, but brother to brother? > > Best question posed on this group in quite a long > while, dude. > > And so appropriate *to* this group. It's appropriate > to *most* spiritual groups, of course, and each has > its own "measuring tape language," but the lingering > effects of the TM movement have drummed its better > than/higher than language and concepts into people > Big Time. Think the "flying contests." Think the > jockeying for who can contribute the most $ and thus > sit the closest to Maharishi, or even be in the same > room with him while the peons watch on TV. Think the > distinctions between raja, purusha/MD, recert governor, > governor, recert TM teacher, TM teacher, citizen siddha, > and lowly peon. Think the flowing robes and the crowns > and the titles appropriated from royal courts, ferchis- > sakes. The whole *movement* is structured in levels > of oneupsmanship, so *of course* that's going to bleed > over into one's thought patterns and language. > > What you say about Rory's use of language as a ranking > device certainly strikes a resonance with me, but now > that you've brought it up, I can see it in many others > as well. And yes, occasionally in myself. Rarely in you, > for the record. > > There's a Bruce Cockburn line in one of his songs that > speaks to this subject: > > Why don't you cool out? > Can it be so hard > to love yourself without thinking > someone else holds a lower card? > > Why is it that a few people "win" arguments on FFL by > asserting their "higher ranking" within some kind of > ranking system? They're more evolved, or more honest, > or more this or more that. But the bottom line, now > that you've brought my attention to it, is that they're > always "more." > > And, now that you've brought the subject up, I find > myself appreciating the few here who are *rarely* "more." > They don't seem to need the ranking system. They're > just *fine* with being equals with the people they're > addressing. > > All the difference in the world. Thanks for mentioning it. > > > > --- In [email protected], "Rory Goff" <rorygoff@> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <no_reply@> > > > wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > > > > Question, short form: Is Katie's "the work," whether > > > > > > valuable or not, just another form of moodmaking? > > > > > > "Rory Goff" <rorygoff@> wrote: > > > > > Answer, short form: No. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <no_reply@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > I don't know. I'm just wondering. Those of you who know > > > > > > more, please explain it to me. > > > > > > "Rory Goff" <rorygoff@> wrote: > > > > > Try it and see for yourself, or keep on spinning rationalizations > > > > > why Not to try it, it makes no difference to me. I'm still gonna > > > > > kick you in the nuts every time I see you on crack waving a > > > > > pistol around -- metaphorically speaking of course :-) > > > > > > "authfriend" <jstein@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm chuckling, remembering when you suggested the > > > > Byron Katie approach to me some time back, and I > > > > rejected it on similar grounds to what Barry's > > > > putting forth here. > > > > > > Hah! Yes! I LOVE the mirror-like quality of FFL, like Life cubed, as > > > Self reflects Self to Self....next it'll be *my* turn to use the > > > infinite-recursion argument! > > > > > > > He proceeded to try to kick me in the nuts for > > > > purportedly spinning rationalizations on why not to > > > > try it. > > > > > > Priceless, isn't it? :-) > > > > > > (You refrained from doing so, apparently > > > > because I didn't seem to you to be metaphorically > > > > on crack waving a pistol around.) > > > > > > Right, you didn't offer me that marvelous image to play with -- but > > > you *did* (in my reality anyhow) offer me your pain, which was all I > > > really wanted. To whatever degree You and I are separate, my > > > heartfelt thanks to You :-) > > > > > > *L*L*L* > > > > > >
