--- In [email protected], "Ron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "jim_flanegin" <jflanegi@>
wrote:
> >
> > --- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <no_reply@>
> > wrote:
> > > So we're back to the first question I ever asked you,
> > > Ron. What are the criteria that you use when someone
> > > tells you that they're enlightened, and you choose to
> > > *believe* them?
> > >
> > > *Other than* the desire for a simple answer to a simple
> > > question, and the desire to be "less confused," what is
> > > it that makes you assume that the person who just gave
> > > you the simple answer gave you a *truthful* answer?
> > >
> > > I think if you ponder this you'll come back with "faith."
> >
> > An interesting and provocative statement—that we confirm our
belief
> > with regard to another's enlightenment primarily with faith.
> >
> > Faith for me plays a central role in my ongoing spiritual
journey,
> > but not in answering this particular question about whether or
not
> > someone is enlightened. Rather, faith comes in when my rational
mind
> > is pitted against my intuition. More specifically when
intuitively I
> > know what I must do in order to move my life forward, and yet
all
> > purely rational conclusions end either in contradiction or fear.
So
> > I gather my faith together like a parachute overhead, take a
flying
> > leap into the Infinite, and hope for a soft landing.
> >
> > The faith component in my ongoing spiritual journey is an
intuitive
> > sense that with a focused desire, I will find my way; I will
find
> > those who I am meant to find to progress on my path, and they
will
> > say and do the things most beneficial for me, and it all works
out
> > pretty seamlessly, albeit painfully sometimes (lol- joke's on
me!).
> >
> > I am aware of my tendency to over think and over plan and second
> > guess the next step forward, for just about anything. And
because
> > spiritual decisions tend to be so core-oriented and
comprehensive,
> > there is possibly a big tendency to over-think, over-plan, and
> > second-guess such decisions. So I have worked hard at balancing
such
> > mental inspection with a good dose of just going along with it.
> > Somewhere in between the two I've evolved a way that is both
> > intelligent and grounded, and I'm sticking with it.
> >
> > Have I achieved my spiritual goals as a result? Absolutely. Has
it
> > taken shape completely differently than I would've imagined it?
> > Absolutely.
> >
> > As far as the question about whether or not someone is
enlightened,
> > my assessment has always been more pragmatic, along the lines
> > of, "will this person advance my knowledge on my ongoing
spiritual
> > journey?". How I have always arrived at an answer on this one is
> > based on how it feels. You know that common expression for why
> > someone hesitates: "It just didn't feel right"?
> >
> > I use the same sort of sense when determining how to move
forward
> > spiritually. Its always an experiential thing with me. The
specific
> > question of whether or not someone is enlightened actually never
> > came up for me, until I knew what enlightenment was
experientially.
> > And again the answer for such a question is on the basis of
feeling,
> > and the exposition on this answer occurs outside the boundaries
of
> > my gross senses and bodily limitations; tools and skills must
> > be "borrowed" from GC and UC in order to arrive at an
instantaneous,
> > definitive answer here. And I'll just stop there for now. :-)
> >
> I am not sure what you are saying here but it looks like your
beliefs do not include with it
> having a Guru right now. My belief is that one wouldn't need a
Guru if they are speaking
> from this level of being, otherwise when using intuition, then it
is colored by the ego, it is
> a sticking place, one gets stuck. Phenomina is thought to be it,
the goal is mistaken.
>
> It is ego delighted to proclaim I can do it on my own as Ramana
did. It is ego fighting
> tooth and nail to stay on it's throne. For with a sat Guru, one
will be following the
> instructions, and one may think they will loose their freedom.
>
> Visions, hearing voices, deep God revelations, deep Bliss, siddhis
to know things- these
> are sign posts that are so often mistaken as the Goal. The sat
Guru knows where one is,
> the one with these experiences that is seeking does not but may
think he does.
>
> Again, these are my beliefs really, I am not speaking from that
level of Being, only voicing
> my opinion. MY opinions are surely influenced by the path I am on
now as I found the
> Guru to be expressing the truth, I think she speaks from Truth, it
is simple and to the
> point.
>
Ron, I always have a Guru- Don't leave Home without It!:-)
