Mar 06 23:00:57 <gregdek> OK, looks like we've got a few folks around. Shall we get started? Mar 06 23:00:57 <quaid> word Mar 06 23:00:59 <stickster> gregdek: fire away, yo Mar 06 23:01:03 <tw2113> yay @ IRC being a collaborative notepad :P Mar 06 23:01:07 * gregdek goes to the agenda. Mar 06 23:01:17 <quaid> <meeting> Mar 06 23:01:21 <gregdek> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Tasks Mar 06 23:01:36 <gregdek> Do we have Rahul? Mar 06 23:01:46 <gregdek> mether: You there? Mar 06 23:01:52 * quaid saw mether around recently Mar 06 23:02:02 <mether> gregdek: yeah Mar 06 23:02:04 * JonRob has quit ("Lost terminal") Mar 06 23:02:27 <gregdek> 1.1.1.2: Target audience. Mar 06 23:02:45 <mether> I wrote some things which might not make sense Mar 06 23:02:45 * JonRob ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) has joined #fedora-mktg Mar 06 23:02:47 <gregdek> Everyone take a look at what mether has. Mar 06 23:02:58 <gregdek> The Plan url: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/MarketingPlan Mar 06 23:03:10 <gregdek> Take a look at section 1.1.1.2. Any comments? Mar 06 23:03:45 * gregdek agrees generally. Mar 06 23:03:54 <JonRob> maybe it needs widening slightly? Mar 06 23:04:05 <quaid> missing "really cool sysadmins" Mar 06 23:04:09 <JonRob> seems to me like fedora's mission has widened a little Mar 06 23:04:11 <tw2113> i don't see my name :P Mar 06 23:04:13 <JonRob> beyond just the distribution Mar 06 23:04:14 <tw2113> kidding Mar 06 23:04:26 <mether> JonRob: feel free to expand it Mar 06 23:04:37 <quaid> how wide? Mar 06 23:04:38 <mether> what do you have in mind? Mar 06 23:04:45 <JonRob> well that's what i'm not sure about Mar 06 23:04:48 <gregdek> Heh. Mar 06 23:05:04 <mether> target audience should be specific and we shouldn't try to fit everything in IMO Mar 06 23:05:13 <JonRob> but fedora as a community certainly appeals to people such as Creative Commons, and Fedora TV is an interesting direction for us to head Mar 06 23:05:14 <quaid> how about sysadmins? Mar 06 23:05:29 <JonRob> is perhaps the point i'm getting at Mar 06 23:05:43 <quaid> Free and open source software developers => Free and open source software and content developers Mar 06 23:05:49 <gregdek> So why is this interesting to Creative Commons? Because they are interested in a derivative distribution, right? Mar 06 23:05:51 <tw2113> i kind of think of fedora as a distro for the people who want to start controlling their computer, instead of the computer controlling them Mar 06 23:06:06 <mether> quaid: i think that covers it right Mar 06 23:06:07 <jmbuser> quaid: +1 Mar 06 23:06:09 <quaid> just chuck "open content" in there, that's legit; Mar 06 23:06:18 <JonRob> quaid: +1 works for me Mar 06 23:06:36 <mether> why sys admins? Mar 06 23:06:37 <gregdek> Hm. Mar 06 23:06:43 <quaid> Free and open source enthusiasts => Free and open source enthusiasts and systems maintainers? Mar 06 23:06:47 <quaid> um, why? Mar 06 23:06:54 <gregdek> The broader the audience = the wider a net we must cast = the more work we all need to do. Mar 06 23:06:55 <mether> whats unique about Fedora for them? Mar 06 23:07:06 <quaid> because it's a rock solid system for server deployments, people use it for that all over the place, and it's a natural step to RHEL sysadmin Mar 06 23:07:18 <quaid> mether: it's the upstream to RHEL :) Mar 06 23:07:24 * gregdek thinks that's covered by "open source enthusiasts". Mar 06 23:07:24 <quaid> that's what is unique Mar 06 23:07:35 <JonRob> gregdek: i guess that's part of the trouble with spins that they can widen our audience continually, especially with the art spin etc Mar 06 23:07:36 <mether> wouldnt a rock solid server deployment have a longer lifecycle? Mar 06 23:07:39 <gregdek> Remember: the reason for coming up with a target audience is to better target the messaging. Mar 06 23:07:56 <quaid> mether: meh, splitting hairs Mar 06 23:08:06 <jmbuser> how about cutting-edge technologists like NASA? Mar 06 23:08:14 <mether> i am not sure. i think server = longer life cycle for many people Mar 06 23:08:18 <gregdek> For every entry in the "audience" category, we need to reconcile our plans to include that entry. Mar 06 23:08:40 <quaid> s/enthusiasts/enthusiasts such as systems maintainers and leading edge technologists/? Mar 06 23:08:44 <tw2113> i think the server aspect depends on how heavily it'd get used and where Mar 06 23:08:50 <mether> quaid: that would work Mar 06 23:08:53 <iWolf> Well, I'm a sysadmin and run Fedora on my desktops/laptop as a way to see what's coming down the pike for my servers. Mar 06 23:08:58 <stickster> Secondary target, would it make sense to have "third-party developers" as they relate to the ISVs? Or is that an unnecessary artificial construct? Mar 06 23:09:02 <tw2113> like if i wanted to set up my own little in-house server for personal use, i wouldn't hesitate using fedora Mar 06 23:09:12 <quaid> stickster: isn't that covered in the second bullet Mar 06 23:09:13 <stickster> s/ISVs/IHVs and ISVs/ Mar 06 23:09:26 <tw2113> but if i wanted a dedicated server for a lot of people to use at once, i would probably aim for more long-term support Mar 06 23:09:26 <mether> stickster: the advantage of Fedora is that you dont have to be a third party Mar 06 23:09:45 <mether> the wiki is too slow for me. anyone else, feel free to edit if they can Mar 06 23:09:58 * quaid edits Mar 06 23:10:05 <stickster> quaid++ Mar 06 23:10:11 <gregdek> It may be that we need to focus more narrowly in "primary audience" and allow more latitude in "secondary audience". Mar 06 23:10:24 <gregdek> As in, "primary audience" are folks that we must have *awesome* messaging for. Mar 06 23:10:24 <JonRob> gregdek: that sounds like the right approach to me Mar 06 23:10:28 <stickster> I'll buy that for $1. Mar 06 23:10:38 <JonRob> i think that's stated more or less too in the overviews and around and about Mar 06 23:10:51 <mether> if you have to say only one thing about the target audience for Fedora, what would that be? Mar 06 23:10:54 <quaid> +1 to narrow primary, allow room in secondary Mar 06 23:11:07 <gregdek> And for me, our *primary* target is free and open source software developers. Mar 06 23:11:15 <gregdek> Who else is clearly *primary*? Mar 06 23:11:25 <quaid> +1 Mar 06 23:11:31 <quaid> enthusiasts? Mar 06 23:11:33 <gregdek> Yeah. Mar 06 23:11:42 <jmbuser> +1 Mar 06 23:11:44 <stickster> I'm a little sad that we can't say we're for desktop users who aren't concerned with the MP3/DVD case. Mar 06 23:11:48 * quaid has an edit window, watch out! Mar 06 23:11:54 <gregdek> Specifically because I think enthusiasts -- and I mean true enthusiasts -- are where the developers come from. Mar 06 23:12:10 <gregdek> stickster: I think that's the definition of an "enthusiast." :) Mar 06 23:12:16 <mether> stickster: in reality, that probably is not our primary target Mar 06 23:12:36 <stickster> gregdek: Sure, if you want to be logical. Mar 06 23:12:47 <mether> stickster: it is exactly the reason why I put desktop users as a secondary target btw. We dont support proprietary stuff Mar 06 23:12:49 <gregdek> I think every other case we listed is a great secondary target, and we could even add more. Mar 06 23:13:24 <JonRob> i don't think we should leave it solely at developers as primary audience Mar 06 23:13:27 <quaid> do we want to move any down from the primary list to secondary? Mar 06 23:13:44 <quaid> right now I have it as is, with the additional language; nothing removed Mar 06 23:13:57 <iWolf> JonRob: I agree. Mar 06 23:13:58 <gregdek> I like developers and enthusiasts as primary. Mar 06 23:14:05 <JonRob> gregdek: +1 Mar 06 23:14:07 <stickster> +1 Mar 06 23:14:14 <JonRob> or perhaps "freedom lovers" :p Mar 06 23:14:17 <iWolf> leave room for sysadmins, hopefully they fall under enthusiasts. Mar 06 23:14:31 <stickster> I also like "derivative creators" in primary, but in my mind that includes appliances. Mar 06 23:14:39 <gregdek> Hm. Mar 06 23:14:55 <gregdek> I could go either way on that. Mar 06 23:15:01 <stickster> We spend a lot of time making sure all our build systems and other supporting structures are free just to make sure someone can do that. Mar 06 23:15:13 <gregdek> It may be primary in terms of strategy, but is it primary in terms of messaging? Mar 06 23:15:37 <stickster> I think so. I *like* spending time in interviews pointing out that everything we build and do is free. Mar 06 23:15:41 <quaid> should we specify Mar 06 23:15:45 <quaid> under secondary Mar 06 23:15:49 <JonRob> gregdek: it must be, surely?! otherwise why bother spending time on something no body is going to hear about? Mar 06 23:15:54 <quaid> that these are not the targets of messaging? Mar 06 23:15:56 <gregdek> A fair point. Mar 06 23:16:13 <quaid> -1 to my idea, fwiw Mar 06 23:16:19 <gregdek> Heh. :) Mar 06 23:16:51 <gregdek> OK, so I'll buy "derivative creators" as a primary -- but that's not as... I dunno. Smooth, I want to say. Mar 06 23:16:55 <stickster> Right. Mar 06 23:17:07 <gregdek> Unless you're already firmly in our world, it probably isn't clear. Mar 06 23:17:07 <stickster> A better way to say it is needed... Mar 06 23:17:09 <quaid> "Fedora feeders"? Mar 06 23:17:15 <stickster> -1 jargon :-D Mar 06 23:17:20 <gregdek> Forkers. Mar 06 23:17:26 <stickster> :-D Mar 06 23:17:28 <gregdek> All those fooking forkers. :) Mar 06 23:17:29 <quaid> Motherforkers? Mar 06 23:17:51 <gregdek> Hrm. Mar 06 23:18:02 <tw2113> what the fork Mar 06 23:18:07 <gregdek> I would say "leave it for now," but I'm concerned if we do, we'll never revisit it, heh. Mar 06 23:18:08 <stickster> How to say... "People who want to copy our awesome model." Mar 06 23:18:11 <quaid> well, those guys, whatever we call them, we agree they are #1 Mar 06 23:18:11 <jmbuser> Mixers and mashers Mar 06 23:18:18 <JonRob> "spiners" Mar 06 23:18:20 <stickster> jmbuser: aha! Mar 06 23:18:23 <stickster> FOSS remixers Mar 06 23:18:30 <gregdek> FOSS remixers. Mar 06 23:18:33 <gregdek> I like that. Mar 06 23:18:33 <stickster> *jinx Mar 06 23:18:35 <tw2113> stickster, "excellent for imitation" Mar 06 23:18:35 <jmbuser> +1 Mar 06 23:18:36 <quaid> sounding like a Dead show here with spinners, mashers ... Mar 06 23:18:50 <gregdek> THE BROWN ACID IS BAD. Mar 06 23:18:53 * quaid fixes that one Mar 06 23:19:04 <tw2113> we're all golden gods? Mar 06 23:19:09 <stickster> This makes it easy -- "Free and open source enthusiasts, developers, and remixers." Mar 06 23:19:16 <gregdek> Me likey Big Time. Mar 06 23:19:17 <jmbuser> +1 Mar 06 23:19:26 <iWolf> and sysadmins. :) Mar 06 23:19:26 <gregdek> 1. Simplify. 2. Amplify. :) Mar 06 23:19:32 <stickster> wakawakawakawaka*BEAT BEAT* Mar 06 23:19:56 <gregdek> OK, I think we've licked target audience. Shall we move on? Mar 06 23:20:00 <stickster> +1 Mar 06 23:20:14 <gregdek> 1.1.2 -- Brand Positioning. That's me! Mar 06 23:20:21 <gregdek> Take a look, and let's have comments. Mar 06 23:20:39 <quaid> hey that worked, just saved it with those changes, pulling all the others under the one audience Mar 06 23:20:40 <mether> gregdek: http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9813113-39.html Mar 06 23:20:58 <mether> gregdek: talks about a all purpose linux foundation. sounds grander than derivative distributions? Mar 06 23:21:02 * quaid needs to pass the edit baton Mar 06 23:21:12 <quaid> have to leave in ~10 minutes Mar 06 23:21:35 <gregdek> Hm. Mar 06 23:21:41 <gregdek> Who wants the edit baton? Mar 06 23:21:45 <gregdek> mether: Maybe. Mar 06 23:22:04 <stickster> Yikes, the "foundation" terminology overload is a little daunting. Mar 06 23:22:04 <jmbuser> gregdek: Pick me Mar 06 23:22:13 <stickster> jmbuser++ Mar 06 23:22:22 <gregdek> jmbuser: A winner is you! Mar 06 23:23:01 <stickster> gregdek: I don't know if I can add to 1.1.2 Mar 06 23:23:07 <stickster> It's so... beautiful... Mar 06 23:23:13 <gregdek> I'm perfect, as always! Mar 06 23:23:16 <mether> User Experience. Fedora offers a user experience that is unsurpassed by Mar 06 23:23:20 <gregdek> Surely someone has something ribald to say. Mar 06 23:23:21 <mether> that sentence is incomplete Mar 06 23:23:25 <stickster> Except "cam" ==> "can" in point 3. Mar 06 23:23:48 <quaid> gregdek: when you've laid down for FLOSS for so long, it just rolls of your tongue? Mar 06 23:23:51 <gregdek> See? mether's paying attention. Stickster is just grab-assing. Mar 06 23:23:52 <stickster> Sorry, I was only looking at the Points of Difference section. Mar 06 23:23:59 <stickster> gregdek: Is it Friday already? Mar 06 23:24:06 <mether> Fedora is the responsible elder brother of the free software world Mar 06 23:24:10 <mether> not sure that is a good analogy Mar 06 23:24:18 <quaid> s/brother/sibling/ ? Mar 06 23:24:23 <tw2113> tomorrow paul Mar 06 23:24:25 <JonRob> umm what about the friends bit: sounds a little like we're exlcuding people who don't agree with us Mar 06 23:24:30 <gregdek> I'll leave it up for debate, but I like it lots. Mar 06 23:24:41 <JonRob> maybe we could emphasise convincing people a little more :) Mar 06 23:24:45 <mether> Friends. We care about the people around us who care about the things that we care about. Mar 06 23:24:56 <quaid> we care that they care enough to convince other people? Mar 06 23:25:01 <mether> I care about my friend even though he cares about completely different things Mar 06 23:25:06 * jmbuser going into edit mode Mar 06 23:25:14 <tw2113> Fedora: we're not brown Mar 06 23:25:19 <gregdek> Then "friends" is the wrong word. Mar 06 23:25:26 <JonRob> tw2113: heh :) Mar 06 23:25:31 <stickster> "We care about the people around us, even if they're not paying attention." Mar 06 23:25:37 <stickster> No, wait, that's wrong. Mar 06 23:25:38 <JonRob> stickster: +1 Mar 06 23:25:44 <JonRob> no i think it's good Mar 06 23:25:44 <gregdek> My opinion: we care about the mission, and we care *a lot* about supporting other people who also care about our mission. Mar 06 23:26:10 * stickster will have to learn not to joke without signifying. Mar 06 23:26:11 <gregdek> Because to be honest, I don't care all that much about the Windows user who doesn't give a toss about free software. Mar 06 23:26:28 <mether> so lets say Mar 06 23:26:29 <gregdek> But I care *deeply* about the folks -- my friends -- who sacrifice their time and energies to make free software better. Mar 06 23:26:30 <stickster> Fedora -- the defensive driver of FOSS. Mar 06 23:26:33 <JonRob> gregdek: surely we need to let them understand why we care though? Mar 06 23:27:01 <JonRob> or are we positioning ourselves more as a solid foundation for those who actually want to take the fight forwards? Mar 06 23:27:12 <mether> Foundation for freedom? Mar 06 23:27:14 <gregdek> JonRob: +1 to that last bit. Mar 06 23:27:19 <gregdek> Foundation For Freedom. Mar 06 23:27:23 * jmbuser did a save Mar 06 23:27:24 <gregdek> Yeah, we need another F. Mar 06 23:27:26 <gregdek> :) Mar 06 23:27:31 <stickster> I'm down with that. Mar 06 23:27:36 <mether> that could be a slogan. we need one Mar 06 23:27:50 <iWolf> we're still going to need to care about people who don't understand. Mar 06 23:27:59 <stickster> "The Future, First" -- that's my slogan. Mar 06 23:28:11 <iWolf> people ask at the Fedora booth, why they should are, or why what we do is good. Mar 06 23:28:18 <iWolf> s/are/care/ Mar 06 23:28:39 <stickster> Back to these points -- "Friends: We care about the people around us, especially those who are devoted to freedom" Mar 06 23:28:41 <mether> Foundation For Software Freedom if you want to be more specific Mar 06 23:28:52 <gregdek> Or Content Freedom. Mar 06 23:29:03 <JonRob> content freedom? Mar 06 23:29:03 <mether> right Mar 06 23:29:07 <gregdek> Hey, we're the FSF! Mar 06 23:29:13 <JonRob> yes, i feel we should push free culture as a whole rather than just free software Mar 06 23:29:14 * stickster falls over.. Mar 06 23:29:17 <gregdek> The Foundation for Software Freedom! Mar 06 23:29:33 <JonRob> gregdek: i think we should use it, just to see the reactions! Mar 06 23:29:34 <gregdek> "Who's that over there?" "He's the Free Software Foundation." "SPLITTER!" Mar 06 23:29:40 <stickster> :-D Mar 06 23:29:48 * gregdek giggles helplessly. Mar 06 23:29:52 <jmbuser> maybe "First" can be "Future" Mar 06 23:29:58 <stickster> gregdek: Chair, you lout! Chair! Mar 06 23:30:13 <gregdek> :) Mar 06 23:30:15 <tw2113> Foundation of Freedom Fighters For Your Future Mar 06 23:30:19 <tw2113> FFFFF Mar 06 23:30:21 <gregdek> All right. Mar 06 23:30:30 <mether> problem I see with future, first is that it doesnt say anything about what we do Mar 06 23:30:32 <gregdek> Is the last edit saved yet? Mar 06 23:30:36 <tw2113> F5 Mar 06 23:30:42 <mether> but IMO, we need a good slogan anyway Mar 06 23:30:49 <jmbuser> what exactly? Mar 06 23:30:57 <tw2113> I still like Infinity Freedom Voice Mar 06 23:31:03 <gregdek> Well, let's table the Slogan idea for right now. Mar 06 23:31:09 <mether> yeah Mar 06 23:31:13 <mether> lets discuss that later Mar 06 23:31:14 <stickster> +1 Mar 06 23:31:16 <gregdek> Let's make sure that we've got the elements of the Brand Essence correct. Mar 06 23:31:18 <quaid> "on list" Mar 06 23:31:28 <stickster> gregdek: And the Parity Points issue. Mar 06 23:31:39 <gregdek> "Freedom / Friends / Features / First". Mar 06 23:31:44 <gregdek> Is that sufficient or not? Mar 06 23:31:55 <quaid> sufficient++ Mar 06 23:32:00 <gregdek> I really kind of like the idea of adding Foundation, now that it's been mentioned. Mar 06 23:32:09 <jmbuser> +1 Mar 06 23:32:12 <stickster> I like foundation here too. Mar 06 23:32:12 <quaid> F5 is much better than F4 anyway Mar 06 23:32:19 <stickster> More destructive. Mar 06 23:32:22 <quaid> (being, you know, not TM'd by Marvel) Mar 06 23:32:23 <stickster> Oh, wait. Mar 06 23:32:25 <gregdek> Especially now that we've noted that remixers are a core target audience. Mar 06 23:32:37 <jmbuser> Framework instead of foundation? Mar 06 23:32:46 <gregdek> Hm. Mar 06 23:32:51 <stickster> jmbuser: Too jargon-y. Mar 06 23:32:55 <gregdek> Yeah. That. Mar 06 23:32:56 <mether> i think we need to tune the definition of whom we call friends. Mar 06 23:32:58 <jmbuser> :-( Mar 06 23:32:59 <mether> did we decide on that? Mar 06 23:33:01 <mether> also People interested in security enhancements like SELinux. Either development or consumption Mar 06 23:33:04 <mether> is that a core audience? Mar 06 23:33:14 <quaid> I tucked it under enthusiasts Mar 06 23:33:14 <gregdek> Foundation = the very strong base. Framework = tinkertoys. Mar 06 23:33:14 <stickster> No. Mar 06 23:33:24 <mether> Freedom. Fedora is completely committed to the growth of free software in a way that no other operating system cam match. Mar 06 23:33:40 <gregdek> Wait... Mar 06 23:33:42 <mether> should that be stated less in terms of competition? Mar 06 23:33:48 <JonRob> we better not forget that we're going to have to explain these things to people Mar 06 23:33:53 <stickster> No, it's a point of difference Mar 06 23:33:55 * gregdek looks back at the "primary target" section. Mar 06 23:34:06 <gregdek> Didn't we agree to narrow it a lot more than that? Mar 06 23:34:09 <JonRob> why is fedora more capable of growing free software? Mar 06 23:34:15 * jmbuser adding Foundation? Mar 06 23:34:29 <stickster> mether: We should be talking in Points of Difference about where Fedora stands out from other FOSS platforms. Mar 06 23:34:29 <JonRob> just as an eg Mar 06 23:34:29 <JonRob> not a quesion that needs answering now Mar 06 23:34:29 <stickster> gregdek: primary target == "FOSS enthusiasts, developers, and remixers" I thought. Mar 06 23:34:54 <stickster> But that may be my ego speaking. Mar 06 23:34:54 <gregdek> stickster: I thought so too. Mar 06 23:35:10 <JonRob> jmbuser +1 Mar 06 23:35:10 <mether> jmbuser: yeah Mar 06 23:35:10 <gregdek> jmbuser: can you re-edit the "target audience primary market" thing, and also add Foundation? Mar 06 23:35:25 * jmbuser jumps into edit mode Mar 06 23:35:54 <jmbuser> ...slowly Mar 06 23:36:06 <stickster> gregdek: I thought Foundation was to be added to 1.1.2 under "Core Brand Essence" Mar 06 23:36:08 <tw2113> [14:35] <zodbot> Announcement from my owner (mmcgrath): We've had a burp on one of our servers, some web services (wiki) and koji will be down for a moment. Mar 06 23:36:12 <tw2113> might be why it's slow Mar 06 23:36:22 <gregdek> Sigh. Mar 06 23:36:36 <JonRob> tw2113: just saw a whloe load of "host down" announcements - was scary! Mar 06 23:36:54 <mether> it is not even accessible for me now Mar 06 23:36:58 <gregdek> Well. Mar 06 23:37:03 <iWolf> server is being rebooted. Mar 06 23:37:09 <iWolf> one of the xen hosts. Mar 06 23:37:13 <gregdek> Looks like our meeting might be abended -- or at least delayed a bit. :) Mar 06 23:37:24 <mether> lets continue discussing what we need to do Mar 06 23:37:34 <stickster> Apparently you guys have not hugged the sysadmins enough today. Mar 06 23:37:56 <tw2113> we thought that was your job Paul Mar 06 23:37:57 <tw2113> part of being the leader and whatnot Mar 06 23:38:09 <mether> stickster: take the blame take the blame Mar 06 23:38:09 <stickster> I'm a hugger. Ask anyone. Mar 06 23:38:28 <stickster> You're right! [sobs violently] I DIDN'T HUG TODAY! Mar 06 23:38:41 <gregdek> OK. Mar 06 23:38:50 <gregdek> Points of Parity / Points of Difference? Mar 06 23:38:56 <gregdek> Any questions / concerns there? Mar 06 23:38:58 <stickster> Parity == equality, yes? Mar 06 23:39:01 <gregdek> Yes. Mar 06 23:39:03 <mether> gregdek: i cant see it Mar 06 23:39:07 <mether> gregdek: paste it? Mar 06 23:39:10 <stickster> So why does our point there basically say "Best user experience"? Mar 06 23:39:11 * jmbuser will update when possible Mar 06 23:39:21 <stickster> Because in my mind, that's stating a differentiator Mar 06 23:39:30 * quaid bails for kiddle pickup and dispersal Mar 06 23:39:37 <gregdek> == "none better". <> "best". Mar 06 23:39:44 <gregdek> Bye quaid. Mar 06 23:39:53 <stickster> gregdek: Wellll... OK. Mar 06 23:40:04 <mether> what do we do with the marketing plan once we have it. Are Red Hat marketing folks helping us after this? Mar 06 23:40:04 <gregdek> User Experience. Fedora offers a user experience that is unsurpassed. Mar 06 23:40:04 <gregdek> :) Mar 06 23:40:10 <gregdek> mether: Certainly they will. Mar 06 23:40:27 <gregdek> I was hoping joadams would be here, but he's unavailable, it seems. Mar 06 23:40:31 <gregdek> He'll be back around, though. Mar 06 23:40:36 * jmbuser achieves edit mode Mar 06 23:40:45 <gregdek> Once we actually nail our message, they'll be able to help a lot with strategy and tactics. Mar 06 23:40:51 <stickster> gregdek: OK, I see -- basically "as good or better than anything you've tried." Mar 06 23:40:57 <gregdek> stickster: Right. Mar 06 23:41:05 <stickster> Where can we extend that definition? Mar 06 23:41:15 <gregdek> ...unclear. Mar 06 23:41:33 <stickster> *Without getting too geeky!* --> Hardware support. Installed a driver lately? Mar 06 23:41:46 <gregdek> Hm, nice. Mar 06 23:41:47 <stickster> The "Just Works" phenomenon Mar 06 23:41:51 <gregdek> Yeah. Mar 06 23:41:57 <gregdek> We've got to tread carefully there, though. Mar 06 23:42:02 <mether> are you talking about proprietary drivers there? Mar 06 23:42:11 <stickster> No, muddles the message. Mar 06 23:42:12 <gregdek> Because if the hardware is goofy, "Just Works" isn't actually true. Mar 06 23:42:15 <tw2113> "Have you hugged your 'just works' OS yet?" Mar 06 23:42:26 <gregdek> This is where the messaging gets difficult. Mar 06 23:42:29 <stickster> I don't think so. Mar 06 23:42:40 <mether> I am not sure our message of free software only works well with the idea of Mar 06 23:42:42 <mether> just works Mar 06 23:42:47 <stickster> For most hardware on some other O/S'es you have to go through a very complicated dance just to make anything work. Mar 06 23:42:47 * geroldka ([EMAIL PROTECTED]/geroldka) has left #fedora-mktg ("Leaving") Mar 06 23:43:03 <stickster> Here, even if it's not whiz-bango, it will likely work to an acceptable degree. Mar 06 23:43:12 <JonRob> does this not fall under messaging rather than brand essence? Mar 06 23:43:21 <gregdek> But the message fails in some very basic cases. Transferring video, for instance. Mar 06 23:43:23 <JonRob> (positioning even) Mar 06 23:43:35 * jmbuser made changes Mar 06 23:43:36 <stickster> The essence == plugging things in just works. Mar 06 23:43:40 <gregdek> We want to say "the best of free software". We cannot honestly say "just works". Mar 06 23:43:53 <mether> gregdek: right. I think we cant honestly advertise just works as an idea for Fedora Mar 06 23:43:55 <stickster> The "plugging things in" simplifies the case. Mar 06 23:43:56 <iWolf> gregdek: +1 Mar 06 23:44:29 <gregdek> stickster: You'll thank us for this later when someone says "bullshit just works, my video camera is totally broken." :) Mar 06 23:44:48 * stickster goes back to his ivory tower. Mar 06 23:44:52 <gregdek> lol Mar 06 23:45:08 <stickster> Buy better shit! Mar 06 23:45:11 <gregdek> So what did we come up with as our "answer"? Because I'm not sure. Mar 06 23:45:11 <stickster> :-D Mar 06 23:45:19 <tw2113> so that's where the leader's office is Mar 06 23:45:34 <gregdek> He directs his armies with a laser pen. Mar 06 23:45:53 <gregdek> (Laser pen: the secret to catherding.) Mar 06 23:45:58 <stickster> Can we talk about parity with upstream here without referring to upstream? Mar 06 23:45:59 * tw2113 apologizes for being all jokes and hardly contributing seriously Mar 06 23:46:08 <stickster> I.e., new like they are? Mar 06 23:46:12 <gregdek> stickster: That's kind of what I'm trying to do, yeah. Mar 06 23:46:14 <stickster> "As new or newer" Mar 06 23:46:28 <gregdek> "Just as GNOME-y as they are!" Mar 06 23:46:38 <gregdek> "If not GNOME-y-er!" Mar 06 23:46:44 <stickster> lol Mar 06 23:46:54 * jmbuser got 502 error - going back in Mar 06 23:46:55 <gregdek> Let me put it this way: Mar 06 23:47:15 <stickster> Yeah, wiki's back up if anyone cares to read along again. Mar 06 23:47:16 <gregdek> What message are we ready to shout repeatedly at an event? Mar 06 23:47:49 <mether> best of free software is a message I am very comfortable with Mar 06 23:47:59 <JonRob> what about the messages on Mairin's generic posters? Mar 06 23:48:13 * Sonar_Guy has quit ("Leaving") Mar 06 23:48:15 <mether> best of free software and open content could be possible Mar 06 23:48:16 <gregdek> Person A says "Ubuntu is better". Fedora defender says "show me how Ubuntu is 'better', and I'll show you a bad compromise that hurts free software". Mar 06 23:48:26 <gregdek> That's my standard line. Mar 06 23:48:42 <stickster> JonRob: 1. I love Mairin's posters. 2. We don't want to harness ourselves to a three-word slogan that didn't get dissected in this kind of plan Mar 06 23:48:56 <stickster> JonRob: We can definitely include them, and fit them in properly though Mar 06 23:49:04 * gregdek looks at the clock. Mar 06 23:49:08 <stickster> onward! Mar 06 23:49:09 <gregdek> Do we want to table this one and move on? Mar 06 23:49:13 <JonRob> stickster: np, was just a thought as it seemed like thye were ready made Mar 06 23:49:24 <gregdek> What do we think of the "Brand Personality"? Mar 06 23:49:24 <tw2113> i'll 2nd a table Mar 06 23:49:27 <stickster> gregdek: I think we run a risk of tabling too much Mar 06 23:49:30 <mether> JonRob: are you editing Mar 06 23:49:37 <JonRob> mether: no Mar 06 23:49:40 <gregdek> stickster: We're going to have to come back and back over this ground anyway. Mar 06 23:49:50 <stickster> Fair enough, then Mar 06 23:49:52 <mether> JonRob: ok. so I will Mar 06 23:50:28 <gregdek> "Brand Personality" -- to me, this means a personification of what the person who loves our brand is like. Mar 06 23:50:56 <gregdek> And I wrote my take on that. Mar 06 23:50:58 <stickster> Nerd Like Me. Mar 06 23:50:59 <tw2113> always wears his button up shirt open Mar 06 23:51:22 <tw2113> is a fan of hats Mar 06 23:51:30 <gregdek> Heh. Mar 06 23:51:33 * jmbuser did the edits - please review Mar 06 23:51:43 <stickster> Fun-loving, but knows when to say when. Mar 06 23:51:59 <tw2113> loves to tinker Mar 06 23:52:14 <stickster> Gives up the seat to elderly and pregnant women. Mar 06 23:52:14 <tw2113> wants free access to anywhere he goes? Mar 06 23:52:34 <jmbuser> gregdek: I like the edler brother imagery Mar 06 23:52:43 <gregdek> Is willing to suffer discomfort for the challenge of making something better. Mar 06 23:52:44 <jmbuser> s /edler /elder / Mar 06 23:52:50 <stickster> Stoic. Mar 06 23:52:56 <gregdek> But not too awful stoic. Mar 06 23:53:01 <jmbuser> Makes the tough calls Mar 06 23:53:04 <stickster> Stoic, but really wordy. Mar 06 23:53:13 <tw2113> the big brother that won't beat you up for playing for the other team, but will try to pursuade you over Mar 06 23:53:17 <gregdek> A good communist like you see in old Russian posters. Mar 06 23:53:22 <stickster> gregdek: XX FAIL Mar 06 23:53:27 <gregdek> :) Mar 06 23:53:27 <jmbuser> eyes upward Mar 06 23:53:28 <stickster> haha Mar 06 23:53:36 <gregdek> Eyes upward! Exactly! Mar 06 23:53:41 <JonRob> tw2113: would be such an awesome poster!! Mar 06 23:53:48 <jmbuser> sleeve rolled up with a wrench in one hand Mar 06 23:53:50 <stickster> "They Had Their Eyes on Heaven." Mar 06 23:53:57 <stickster> Rosie the Riveter! Mar 06 23:54:03 <gregdek> I'm telling you. Those communists knew their propaganda. Social realism. Mar 06 23:54:06 <JonRob> oh that could be an awesome poster Mar 06 23:54:08 <tw2113> "They had their eyes on the infinite abyss" Mar 06 23:54:14 <stickster> That sounds... scary Mar 06 23:54:17 <JonRob> what's all this "had" Mar 06 23:54:22 <JonRob> has :) Mar 06 23:54:23 <tw2113> have* Mar 06 23:54:31 <JonRob> or have yes lol Mar 06 23:54:39 <jmbuser> gazing on infinity Mar 06 23:54:39 <JonRob> anyway...where is this heading exactly? Mar 06 23:54:42 <tw2113> "With Fedora, the terrorists haven't won" Mar 06 23:54:53 <stickster> We're not being funny, we're really trying to figure out a personality. Mar 06 23:54:56 <gregdek> Where this is going: Mar 06 23:55:04 <stickster> Shadowman is a personality, but he personifies Red Hat, for example. Mar 06 23:55:04 <gregdek> Well, what stickster said. Mar 06 23:55:12 <gregdek> We're looking for the personification of our brand. Mar 06 23:55:12 * stickster gives back the thunda Mar 06 23:55:23 <gregdek> Just like Shadowman has become the personification of the Red Hat brand. Mar 06 23:55:28 <JonRob> ok cool - just like to keep my head straight :) Mar 06 23:55:30 <tw2113> aw carpy! i have to leave soon Mar 06 23:55:39 <gregdek> Yeah, we're running up on our hour. Mar 06 23:55:40 <stickster> Spartacus. Mar 06 23:55:46 <gregdek> I AM SPARTACUS! Mar 06 23:55:58 <stickster> If you want the movie personification of Fedora, that's it. Mar 06 23:56:02 <gregdek> Spartacus. Braveheart. Mar 06 23:56:07 <tw2113> This Is Fedora Mar 06 23:56:09 <jmbuser> Gladiator Mar 06 23:56:18 <JonRob> http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=rosie+the+riveter&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1 Mar 06 23:56:19 <gregdek> Ben Hur. Mar 06 23:56:24 <stickster> Well, except William Wallace slept with someone else's wife, which is arguably not kosher. Mar 06 23:56:25 <JonRob> i really think awesome stuff could be done with this Mar 06 23:56:33 <stickster> (in the movie, no idea about IRL) Mar 06 23:56:33 <JonRob> and because it's a well known image would have a lot of impact Mar 06 23:56:34 <gregdek> stickster: Killjoy. Mar 06 23:56:36 <stickster> gregdek: lol Mar 06 23:56:42 <gregdek> OK... Mar 06 23:56:58 <jmbuser> MS has a real heroes campaign going on - just to let you know Mar 06 23:57:00 <gregdek> ...so let's think more about this and maybe comment on-list. Mar 06 23:57:00 <tw2113> i'm thinking of an audio clip for a prowrestler that i could maybe make into something about Fedora Mar 06 23:57:00 <gregdek> :) Mar 06 23:57:03 <tw2113> i'll check it out later Mar 06 23:57:17 <stickster> jmbuser: So did Hitler, I think. Mar 06 23:57:19 <gregdek> That leaves Strategy and Tactics, which we haven't even touched yet, and we're at the end of our hour. Mar 06 23:57:45 * stickster can keep going but is sensitive to others' valuable time. Mar 06 23:58:00 * gregdek can keep going for another 1/2hr, for those who can join us. Mar 06 23:58:05 <JonRob> i'm good for 10 more mins Mar 06 23:58:13 * jmbuser is fine with that Mar 06 23:58:14 * iWolf is still here Mar 06 23:58:20 <tw2113> i'm good for as long as it takes to get dressed for work Mar 06 23:58:30 <stickster> tw2113: the secret is layers Mar 06 23:58:33 <gregdek> Do we want to dig into S+T? Mar 06 23:58:35 <stickster> gregdek: onward! Mar 06 23:58:37 <tw2113> i'll just read the minutes for what i miss Mar 06 23:58:43 <gregdek> S+T! jonrob? Mar 06 23:58:48 <JonRob> yeah sure let's do it Mar 06 23:59:06 <gregdek> Warning: this is huge and will take multiple meetings. :) Mar 06 23:59:21 <stickster> right. Mar 06 23:59:30 <gregdek> (In fact, will likely be the heart of this group does, once we've established the basics.) Mar 06 23:59:44 <gregdek> Any comments on what we've got so far? Mar 06 23:59:54 <stickster> Maybe it makes more sense, then, to make sure we've nailed down the foregoing parts. Mar 07 00:00:11 <gregdek> Hm. Mar 07 00:00:12 <gregdek> Maybe. Mar 07 00:00:16 * iWolf made comments on the list Mar 07 00:00:19 <stickster> Since we'll live in that section for{ever, longer}. Mar 07 00:00:28 <JonRob> stickster: my only question is what of the short/medium terms Mar 07 00:00:28 <gregdek> (oops... /me must wander afk, brb...) Mar 07 00:00:34 <JonRob> this document aims to make a difference long-term Mar 07 00:00:43 <JonRob> but i think we really need to make improvements in the short term too Mar 07 00:00:45 <stickster> o noez! we had a leeder but dey eated him. Mar 07 00:01:01 <mether> what is working and what is not working in whatever we have tried so far Mar 07 00:01:05 <mether> lets get to that Mar 07 00:01:13 <JonRob> mether: +1 Mar 07 00:01:34 <mether> i see some articles getting diggs and some just getting lost in the interviews we make for example Mar 07 00:01:36 <stickster> Things which work: * Our release schedule. (predictability) Mar 07 00:01:43 <tw2113> talk to you all later Mar 07 00:01:44 <mether> but interviews in general are a good strategy Mar 07 00:01:53 <JonRob> tw2113: bye :) Mar 07 00:02:07 <stickster> mether: Notice that the one article which concerned the larger world (Jack + NASA) got a HUGE uptake on digg. Mar 07 00:02:13 <mether> since it keeps us in the news and highlights our contributions. makes our contributors proud Mar 07 00:02:15 <jmbuser> tw2113: bye Mar 07 00:02:18 <JonRob> stickster: true Mar 07 00:02:24 <stickster> I think we need to strive for relevance beyond just the FOSS community. Mar 07 00:02:39 <jmbuser> NASA article most dugg Fedora article of all time Mar 07 00:02:47 <mether> wikipedia is a big Fedora user. Have we approached them? Mar 07 00:02:52 <stickster> mether: Great idea! Mar 07 00:02:56 <JonRob> mether: i had no idea Mar 07 00:02:58 <JonRob> but it's a damn good idea Mar 07 00:03:00 <jmbuser> +1 Mar 07 00:03:07 <stickster> Google is too, but somehow I think we may not get as much traction there ;-) Mar 07 00:03:24 <jmbuser> Google has a brown tint ltely Mar 07 00:03:29 <mether> JonRob: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_servers Mar 07 00:03:39 <jmbuser> s / ltely /lately / Mar 07 00:03:39 <JonRob> but then the question remains, what medium do we use? Mar 07 00:04:04 <stickster> jmbuser: ? Mar 07 00:04:23 <mether> there are two things to be done Mar 07 00:04:39 <mether> find out the big users and promote that. figure out how to retain them and solve their issues Mar 07 00:04:52 <stickster> (while remaining true to our mission) Mar 07 00:05:02 <mether> it will help us understand out strong points too Mar 07 00:05:11 * jmbuser refers to recent hostings of other distro's conferences Mar 07 00:05:16 <JonRob> mether: +1 Mar 07 00:05:34 <gregdek> Wow, I walk away and you guys start a *real* meeting. Mar 07 00:05:38 <stickster> jmbuser: They've also funded at least one FUDCon that I know of. Mar 07 00:05:48 <stickster> s/funded/funded in part/ Mar 07 00:05:48 <mether> I am pretty sure a lot of RHEL users use Fedora in parallel Mar 07 00:05:59 <mether> thats where Red Hat marketing can help Mar 07 00:06:01 <stickster> mether: What's the second thing? Mar 07 00:06:02 <jmbuser> stickster: How come I never heard about it? Mar 07 00:06:05 <stickster> Or was that it? Mar 07 00:06:10 <mether> stickster: that was it Mar 07 00:06:13 <JonRob> yeah, i was about to ask if RedHat could help us find out who's using Fedora Mar 07 00:06:16 <stickster> ok Mar 07 00:06:45 <mether> jmbuser: fudcon boston 2007 - they were one of the sponsors Mar 07 00:06:51 <stickster> It may or may not be possible for some or all of them to tell us as a matter of competitive strategery Mar 07 00:07:12 <stickster> If you do or don't ask me, the above notwithstanding Mar 07 00:07:36 <mether> sure. so let's say we talk to the ones that are willing to talk to us Mar 07 00:07:47 <jmbuser> My point is that Ubuntu has the perception of being really tight with Google, which lets them bask in Google's reflected glory Mar 07 00:07:56 <jmbuser> eof Mar 07 00:08:23 <mether> we dont need to pick a fight on that account to win Mar 07 00:08:24 <gregdek> jmbuser: Good. Mar 07 00:08:34 <gregdek> Because it's time for us to associate with wikia. :) Mar 07 00:08:39 * stickster thought that was all hoax anyway. Mar 07 00:08:43 <stickster> But yeah, who cares? Mar 07 00:08:59 * stickster likes the tie in between wikia, distributed web crawling, and the new Fedora @Home idea. Mar 07 00:09:04 <gregdek> Ding ding ding. Mar 07 00:09:16 <gregdek> There's gonna be a *ton* of cool stuff we can do with that. Mar 07 00:09:27 <gregdek> In fact, and I think we may be moving more into board-level strategy here... Mar 07 00:09:31 <mether> yeah. I think we got the message of innovation out there with atleast a few different projects Mar 07 00:09:37 <mether> smolt is one Mar 07 00:09:40 <mether> SELinux is another Mar 07 00:09:57 <jmbuser> spins Mar 07 00:10:08 <mether> We should keep promoting transifex too. [EMAIL PROTECTED] could be the next big thing Mar 07 00:10:12 <jmbuser> pulseaudio Mar 07 00:10:14 * stickster interjects once again that what sells papers is Relevance to the Common Man. Even on the interwebz. Mar 07 00:10:21 <gregdek> ...a comprehensive agreement with Jimbo Wales to strengthen the Fedora/Wikia branding, including using Wikia as our default search in Firefox/Iceweasel/whatever, would make a *HUGE* statement about what we *really* think about Google. Mar 07 00:10:22 <mether> along with Virtualization Mar 07 00:10:37 <jmbuser> gregdek: +1 Mar 07 00:10:39 <JonRob> gregdek +1 Mar 07 00:10:49 <jmbuser> great association Mar 07 00:10:55 <JonRob> so, as a follow up, who wants to get in touch with the wikia people? Mar 07 00:10:59 <gregdek> I will. Mar 07 00:11:02 <mether> gregdek: how does that match with the agreement with Google that is ongoing now? Mar 07 00:11:05 <gregdek> Actually, I'll ask Jack to. Mar 07 00:11:09 <stickster> What agreement? Mar 07 00:11:12 <gregdek> mether: That agreement is dead. Mar 07 00:11:19 <stickster> We agree... to disagree. Mar 07 00:11:25 <mether> there has been one under discussion for a long while Mar 07 00:11:29 <mether> afaik Mar 07 00:11:32 <gregdek> The one at the board level? Mar 07 00:11:35 <mether> yes Mar 07 00:11:36 <gregdek> The one I was spearheading? Mar 07 00:11:40 <stickster> lol Mar 07 00:11:45 <mether> gregdek: YES Mar 07 00:11:51 <gregdek> The one that I killed earlier this week because Google lawyers are intractable? Mar 07 00:11:53 <gregdek> That one? Mar 07 00:11:54 <gregdek> :) Mar 07 00:12:02 * stickster has paroxysms Mar 07 00:12:03 <mether> you never informed us. so... Mar 07 00:12:07 <gregdek> ... Mar 07 00:12:09 <jmbuser> :-( Mar 07 00:12:13 <gregdek> I sent it to the board. Mar 07 00:12:13 <mether> anyway, so lets talk to wikia then Mar 07 00:12:23 <gregdek> Sorry, I should have sent it out more broadly. Mar 07 00:12:34 <gregdek> stickster: should I resend that note to f-a-l? Mar 07 00:12:38 <JonRob> i think it also sends a strong singal of us leading innvoation, as was done with the wifi drivers etc too Mar 07 00:13:05 <stickster> gregdek: I don't know... it was all theoretical as far as I could see -- was there actual Board work on this pre-February? Mar 07 00:13:20 <mether> gregdek: i think you should announce the agreement with wikia asap. Mar 07 00:13:23 * gregdek hrms. Mar 07 00:13:26 <stickster> It would be great if we had one first. Mar 07 00:13:30 <JonRob> lol Mar 07 00:13:32 <gregdek> Well, people who read the irc logs will know. :) Mar 07 00:13:34 <mether> thats the hint Mar 07 00:13:39 * gregdek shrugs. Mar 07 00:13:48 <stickster> swymamwys. Mar 07 00:13:52 <mether> anyway, move on Mar 07 00:14:01 <gregdek> I don't think anyone outside of a few people will care that "the Fedora deal with Google that wasn't coming through still isn't coming through." Mar 07 00:14:10 <stickster> disco. Mar 07 00:14:10 <gregdek> But I think *a ton* of people will care if we can make a deal with Wikia. Mar 07 00:14:17 <gregdek> Therefore, I will work on Jimbo. sok? Mar 07 00:14:27 <mether> sure Mar 07 00:14:27 <stickster> gregdek: This we should definitely post on f-a-b. Mar 07 00:15:13 <gregdek> stickster: It may involve breaking partnership with Mozilla, since helping them maintain their deal with Google seems to be part of our deal to use the Firefox name. Mar 07 00:15:13 <stickster> So I think we can definitely tie this in to S&T -- users --> contributors in Fedora-land. Mar 07 00:15:25 <gregdek> (Sorry, I'll take this offline.( Mar 07 00:16:05 <JonRob> np Mar 07 00:16:14 <JonRob> i think i'm about done with this for the evening Mar 07 00:16:43 <JonRob> (lol sorry, that sounded way more negative than i meant - been a rough day here!) Mar 07 00:16:52 <gregdek> Ha! Mar 07 00:17:01 * jmbuser makes last call for wiki edit Mar 07 00:17:03 <gregdek> I think we've had a great meeting, but I think it's breaking up. Mar 07 00:17:15 <stickster> We did in fact hit some S&T heer. Mar 07 00:17:16 <stickster> *here Mar 07 00:17:56 <stickster> My constant reiteration is going to be "relevance." Someone said to me the other day, with regard to the Fedora @Home MRG thing, "We could help SETI!" Mar 07 00:18:06 <stickster> My response was basically, "Screw that, we could help kids with cancer." Mar 07 00:18:20 <JonRob> stickster: is very true Mar 07 00:18:21 <stickster> After which I realized, "We could do both," was right. Mar 07 00:18:37 <JonRob> anyhow all, Mar 07 00:18:42 <stickster> But one of those will "sell papers." Three guesses which! Mar 07 00:18:43 <JonRob> nice to speak to everyone as always Mar 07 00:19:06 <JonRob> are we doing this same time next week? i might not be here actually, going home for easter :) Mar 07 00:19:31 <gregdek> I would like to, yes. Mar 07 00:19:48 <gregdek> Even if not everyone shows. I think consistent meeting times are incredibly important. Mar 07 00:19:56 <JonRob> ok - good by me Mar 07 00:20:01 * jmbuser will publish log Mar 07 00:20:06 <JonRob> thanks all, and best wishes :) Mar 07 00:20:11 <mether> yep Mar 07 00:20:18 * JonRob has quit ("Lost terminal") Mar 07 00:20:25 <mether> everybody else Mar 07 00:20:30 <mether> refresh once the marketing plan page Mar 07 00:20:36 <mether> and see if there is something we disagree with Mar 07 00:20:45 <mether> since a number of edits have been made Mar 07 00:21:55 <mether> did everyone leave? Mar 07 00:22:16 <gregdek> Heh. Mar 07 00:22:20 <gregdek> I did. Mar 07 00:24:00 <jmbuser> mether: what happened to FOSS mixers? seems to be deleted from your last save Mar 07 00:24:20 <mether> nah Mar 07 00:24:22 <mether> it is still there Mar 07 00:24:26 <stickster> jmbuser: Are you still editing? Mar 07 00:24:55 <jmbuser> mether got the last edit in - I got 502 error :-) Mar 07 00:28:16 * stickster fixes the market w/hubris. Mar 07 00:28:27 <jmbuser> Is anyone calling the meeting? Mar 07 00:28:41 * jmbuser needs to know where to end log Mar 07 00:29:16 <mether> you can end when jonrob left Mar 07 00:29:19 <stickster> </meeting>
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