yes, it's true, TRANSMISSION will probably occur--but transmission is not
the same as INFECTION--that's where the 70% figure, the 95% efficacy rate of
the vaccine comes in, and the lack of any evidence that truly negative
vaccinated cats have ever actually stayed positive.

all of the professional sites--the merck, the vet schools, etc. are
decidedly less optimistic than most of us with FeLVs would like, but it
makes sense. they have to be; they are scientists, they rely on data--

and as i keep repeating, it's been almost impossible to do research when the
preferred line of treatment for your test population is euthanasia.

back in 03, i think, i asked why no one was doing any research on the
"captive" populations of FIVs and FeLVs that DID exist in the country--at
that time, there were basically three sanctuaries as options. all three had
had the same experiences, on a larger scale, as individual caretakers found,
with both FIVs and FeLVs--but no one ever asked any of them..... clearly,
invasive or abusive research techniques wouldn't have been allowed by
anyone, but bloodwork that might have shown what strains of the viruses were
present? reactions to supplements, treatments, etc? wow, there these
populations were--why didn't anyone take advantage of them??????

i was told that the only chance, really, was to get a drug company convinced
that they could somehow use the information to make money someday--that
there just wasn't enough research funding available to do such studies just
because it was the right thing to do...... i don't remember what questions i
asked her back then (it was one of the vets from, because i
was a chat host at VIN at the time), but she said they were really good
ones..... i think some of them HAVE been answered since--maybe i'll try to
find it....

but yeah, the scientists are NOT going to say it's so until they've got data
to back it up.... we need to pay attention, tho to what actually is
SAID--"transmission" v "infection," in this case; "most cats" v "all cats,"
and my original question to you that started this: "what did you mean by

the other thing that has to be kept in mind is that just because a cat has a
virus in its body, ANY virus, all things that happen to it are NOT gonna be
related to that. you will never convince some people of that, however, just
as time has proven that no amount of science about HIV will convince some
people that you can't get it in some of the ways some still say you can. so,
in terms of liability as well as science, the professionals are not gonna
say, "this will NEVER happen," because if a cat shows up with a carcinoma on
its left back paw, and is FeLV, you can BET that some lawyer, somewhere, is
gonna say that it was caused by the FeLV, and now the rest of their cats are
in danger---ie, they are covering their furry little butts.

oh, the vaccination question. another area where not enough is known, but
oy, there are more definite opinions than discarded needles. definitely ask
your vet about the booster for pequita; if you aren't comfortable with her
answer, just ask her if she would mind contacting a cat-only practitioner
(who are USUALLY more up to date on feline conditions, hopefully), what the
current protocol is. that should NOT threaten her in the least, and she can
then work with them about the risks/benefits re: the crf. )

everyone: do you have copies of the most recent vaccination protocols?????
with the info on NOT giving all of them in the scruff? and which rabies and
FeLV vaccines do not have adjuvants, which are considered the culprits in
causing injection-site sarcomas? if not, i just saved the 2007 protocols to
hard drive the other day (yeah, another one of those, oh, hail, but WHERE?);
i'm SURE others on this list know which are the safest FeLV vaccs.


another one of my patented objective responses.


On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Sharyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> MC, I read the Merck info when Sissy and Rocket, now 9 mo. old, 1st tested
> positive.    What concerns me is the last statement
> "Uninfected cats in a household with infected cats should be vaccinated;
> however, other means of protecting uninfected cats (eg, physical separation)
> should also be used. Constant exposure to FeLV-infected cats is likely to
> result in viral transmission regardless of vaccination status."
> My Pequita, going on 16, was dx with CRF 2 1/2 yrs ago.  Since then the
> only vaccine she has gotten is rabies.   I'm taking Stormie, a 10 mo. old
> negative rescue, in for her FeLV booster shot Monday.   I'll talk to the vet
> then about a booster for Pequita.
> Rocket is thriving and is asymptomatic.  Sissy has had enlarged lymph nodes
> since her rescue in Feb.    The swelling has gone down since she was spayed
> and I had her baby molars removed.  My concern for Pequita and Stormie
> needing her follow up booster are the main reasons they are quarantined in
> the bedroom.  Tiki, my healthy 4 yr old, is current on her FeLV boosters.
> The babes are quarantined in a dog crate in my garage at night and an
> outside cat enclosure during the day.  I was concerned about them stressing
> Sissy and Rocket.  I had the babies in their bathroom the 1st night and it
> seemed to upset them.  Right now I have 9 cats on 5 different diets.
> Starting to wear me out but you do what you have to.
> It appears mine got FeLV by nursing from an infected Mother since Stormie
> from the same colony tested negative.
> To be honest I can not afford to test the cats I will be TNRing.  I can
> make sure they don't have any more kittens thereby preventing infected
> kittens.  And I can make sure they eat well.  I will not PTS a cat who
> appears to be healthy.  It took 3 visits to the vet with Sissy and Rocket
> before they believed me that these girls were not going to be PTS and they
> might as well start folders for them.
> Thanks again for the info.
> Sharyl
> --- On *Sun, 7/20/08, MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote:
> From: MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Introducing Daisy's Babies
> To:
> Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 5:53 PM
>  unfortunately, not enough vets know as much as they really ought to.
> many, many times i wish that i knew MORE, because i am NOT a vet, i am NOT a
> virologist, and just do my best to make the things i've found clearer to
> others--and hope that those who know more than i do, will do likewise!
> i think that EVERYONE who has a FeLV, and who knows one, or who ever has
> loved one, needs to play out copies of--of have the url to tattooed where
> they can show it everyone--the most recent merck manual, where they've got
> the most up-to-date figures about how many cats do NOT remain viremic after
> exposure..... shelters, rescues, vets, people who claim to follow alley cat
> allies' policy yet in practice test all cats and then KILL felvs (yet brag
> about the FeLVs they have at home): there are no excuses for ignorance, and
> now that the anecdotal info that the brave people who came before us is
> reaching the mainstream, ignorance about FeLV is a CHOICE when made by
> professionals, veterinary or rescue.
> here's that link again, and while i DO get tired of posting it, oh, well,
> if i don't (and you don't, and you don't, and you, there, over in the corner
> snuggling with your cute little FeLV baby, don't), no one else will.....) The
> Merck Veterinary Manual -Feline Leukemia Virus and Related Diseases:
> Introduction<>
> do you have other cats? (yeah, i know, i could go back and reread
> everything, but.....) are you isolating the little ones because of their
> FeLV status, or presumed status? are the older ones vaccinated against FeLV?
> if so, you really don't have to worry about them mixing with the young ones
> if the adults are healthy.... as the old-timers on this list can tell you,
> so far no one has been able to find a single, documented case of a TRUE
> negative (tested at least twice, with enough time for exposure and
> seroconversion times taken into consideration) becoming positive from LIVING
> with (closely, not just breathing on in passing) a TRUE positive (as above;
> testing positive over time, using at least two kinds of tests). current
> vaccination efficacy rates at 95% (yes, i am trying to find WHERE that
> figure is hiding in my hard drive; i know it was susan little, dvm, of the
> winn feline foundation, that gave that figure to a cat-health list in the
> past two or three years. many places state--not always with any proof or
> citation--that cats seem to develop a natural immunity to the FeLV virus
> around the age of one year, and with the KNOWN high percentage quoted in the
> merck re: ability to remain or become negative after exposure, anyone can
> see how miniscule the risk is for a vaccinated cat.
> is there a risk? of course there is. is it a higher risk than the same
> negative cat is going to have some genetic defect in its own history you
> have no knowledge of? i'm starting to think the latter is a much higher
> probability....
> you might want to talk with some of the folks who have positives running
> around their houses with the rest, now and in the past, and see why they
> made that decision....
> i wish that i could tell you that these little ones will, indeed, throw off
> the virus on their own and be as adoptable as any others. kittens with FeLV
> still appear to have less of a chance at a long life than those infected
> later in life, but we don't know enough to say why, and which ones have the
> best chance, nor what we can do to ensure that they get that absolute best
> chance.
> thank you for loving them. that's the best gift of all, anyway.
> MC
> On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Sharyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>   Thanks MC for explaining the ELISHA test.  I had Mattie tested when her
>> Mom. Daisy, was spayed.  A lady here on the Eastern Shore drives up to MD
>> once a month to a vet who does low cost spaying for rescues.   She doesn't
>> know anything about FeLV and just relayed the vets comments.
>> Sissy and Rocket have had two ELISHA tests 4 months apart.  When I 1st
>> rescued them and again when they were spayed.  Since they were FeLV+ I went
>> with the local high cost vet for the spaying.   Didn't want them stressed
>> any more than necessary.  I plan to have the IFA test done late this yr.
>> Both are currently the picture of health and tired of being quarantined in
>> the bedroom.
>> I have read the info on the Ally Cats web site.  I agree that healthy cats
>> should not be PTS.  The Yahoo Rescue group I belong to feels that TNR
>> kitties should not be tested as long as they are healthy when
>> spayed/neutered.   Like the military 'don't ask, don't tell' philosophy.
>> The exception is any cat that will be placed for adoption.
>> There were 5 kittens in Sissy and Rocket's litter,  One vanished.  One,
>> Daisy, has been TNR and I have one, Mae, to go.  No idea who their Mom was.
>> I haven't see any likely candidates around the dumpster site.  With 3
>> negative inside cats I just can't take them all in.   I think I have lined
>> up a forever home for 2 of the babies, Bright Eyes and Houdini, in a home
>> with FeLV+ cats.  Since Mattie is blind and Capt.CJ only has sight in one
>> eye, I'll keep them.  So far I have just had Mattie tested.  No reason not
>> to believe all 4 babies are positive.  I will have them tested when they are
>> spayed.   Maybe, since they are no longer nursing and eating well, they can
>> kick it.
>> Thanks for your input.
>> Sharyl
>> --- On *Sat, 7/19/08, MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote:
>> From: MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Introducing Daisy's Babies
>> To:
>> Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 2:59 PM
>>  just wondering if you are working with alley cat allies, and following
>> their protocol re: testing and releasing/treating FeLV cats? my
>> understanding is that they do not endorse euthanizing positive, asymptomatic
>> cats, so testing daisy would only give you some health information. i
>> believe they have a really good explanation for how they've come to their
>> decisions re: testing--i am also very aware that their decision regarding
>> this is controversial. all the of the experienced feral rescuers i know
>> personally, however, whether they have specific experience with FeLV or not,
>> have said the same thing: we do NOT kill healthy cats just because they
>> MIGHT get sick at some point.
>> what a concept!
>> and also not sure what you mean when you say the cats have tested
>> positive--using which tests? how far apart?
>> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Sharyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>   I have been feeding a dumpster colony of kitties for several months
>>> with the goal of doing TNR (trap/neuter/release) for those that I can not
>>> rescue.  Of the 3 kittens I rescued 2, Sissy and Rocket, were FeLV+.  They
>>> are about 9 months old now and are doing well.  Both have test positive
>>> twice.
>>> Their sister, Daisy, had a litter before I was able to TNR her.  The
>>> kittens were approx. 4 weeks old when I got them.  I took them because 1 had
>>> both eyes stuck shut and 1 had 1 eye stuck shut.  The next day I was finally
>>> able to trap Daisy using a kitten as bait in the carrier.    Daisy has since
>>> been spayed and released.  The babies have received one worm treatment, got
>>> terramycin salve in their eyes for a week, and have lysine added to their
>>> food.
>>> It appears that Mattie will be blind.  She is the biggest of the 4 and
>>> very feisty.   I had her tested and the vet said she was very, very, very
>>> FeLV+.  No idea what 3 verys mean.  CJ may have some limited vision in her
>>> bad eye.  Bright Eyes and Houdini (escaped from the dog crate twice now)
>>> seem healthy.   I am adding L-Lysine and Mega C Plus to their food.  I am
>>> looking for advice on what else I can do to help them throw off this virus.
>>> They will each be tested when I have them spayed.   Sissy and Rocket were
>>> several months old when I rescued them.  Didn't know if starting treatments
>>> earlier would improve the odds that they could beat this.   Any advise on
>>> how to proceed with now 5 1/2 wk old kittens would be appreciated.
>>> By the way Stormie, same colony but different Mom from Sissy, Rocket and
>>> Daisy, tested negative.  I did not have Daisy tested.  I knew I could not
>>> afford to keep her if she was positive and simply do not have the
>>> disposition to have a cat PTS simply because she is positive.   At least she
>>> will not have any more litters.  There is one more sister, Mae, that I have
>>> been trying to trap for TNR.
>>> Sharyl Sissy, Rocket and the babies
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Felvtalk mailing list
>> --
>> Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
>> Maybe That'll Make The Difference....
>> MaryChristine
>> _______________________________________________
>> Felvtalk mailing [EMAIL 
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> --
> Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
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