"and my original question to you that started this: "what did you mean by 
Sissy and Rocket had the serum ELISA  test when first rescued and again 4 
months later when spayed.  All 4 results were positive.  I added Mega C Plus to 
their mix of supplements in late April and do not intent to retest for 6 months 
using the IFA test.  Since the high priced local vet charges $46 for the ELISA 
test I have to limit the amount of testing I do.  I haven't asked for a quote 
on the cost of the IFA test.  
Both had low normal HCT and potassium levels when they were spayed.  I have 
since added Super B complex, folic acid and potassium gluconate to the 
supplement mix.
No idea what test the low cost spay vet used on baby Mattie.  Guessing saliva 
ELISA since the cost was just $20.
Is this the updated vaccine guidelines you were referencing?
"WSAVA Vaccination Guideline Group (VGG) 
The VGG was convened in order to develop guidelines for the vaccination of dogs 
and cats that have global applications. The VGG recognizes that the keeping of 
pet small animals is subject to significant variation in practice and 
associated economics throughout the world, and that vaccination recommendations 
that might apply to a developed country, amy or may not be appropriate for a 
developing country. Despite this, the VGG strongly recommends that wherever 
possible, ALL dogs and cats receive the benefit of vaccination. This not only 
protects the individual animal, but provides optimum "herd immunity" that 
minimizes the likelihood of outbreak of infectious disease.
With this in mind, the SAC and VGG has developed the attached Guidelines for 
the Vaccination of Dogs and Cats to assist veterinarians throughout the world 
in developing vaccination strategies based on disease incidence and sound 
immunological principles, bothe of which are covered in the Guideline text. 
These Guidelines also contain information on vaccination in the shelter 
environment and have been published in the Journal of Small Animal Practice: 
Day MJ, Horzinek MC, Schultz RD. Guidelines for the vaccination of dogs and 
cats: Compiled by the Vaccination Guidelines Group (VGG) of the World Small 
Animal Veterinary Association (WSAVA). J Sm Anim Pract 2007;48(9):528-541. 

Unique to the Guidelines published here on the WSAVA website are a series of 
disease summary sheets and a Frequently Asked Question (FAQ) section for added 
reader benefit.

Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF) "

--- On Sun, 7/20/08, MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Introducing Daisy's Babies
Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 7:24 PM

yes, it's true, TRANSMISSION will probably occur--but transmission is not the 
same as INFECTION--that's where the 70% figure, the 95% efficacy rate of the 
vaccine comes in, and the lack of any evidence that truly negative vaccinated 
cats have ever actually stayed positive.

all of the professional sites--the merck, the vet schools, etc. are decidedly 
less optimistic than most of us with FeLVs would like, but it makes sense. they 
have to be; they are scientists, they rely on data--

and as i keep repeating, it's been almost impossible to do research when the 
preferred line of treatment for your test population is euthanasia.

back in 03, i think, i asked why no one was doing any research on the "captive" 
populations of FIVs and FeLVs that DID exist in the country--at that time, 
there were basically three sanctuaries as options. all three had had the same 
experiences, on a larger scale, as individual caretakers found, with both FIVs 
and FeLVs--but no one ever asked any of them..... clearly, invasive or abusive 
research techniques wouldn't have been allowed by anyone, but bloodwork that 
might have shown what strains of the viruses were present? reactions to 
supplements, treatments, etc? wow, there these populations were--why didn't 
anyone take advantage of them?????? 

i was told that the only chance, really, was to get a drug company convinced 
that they could somehow use the information to make money someday--that there 
just wasn't enough research funding available to do such studies just because 
it was the right thing to do...... i don't remember what questions i asked her 
back then (it was one of the vets from, because i was a chat 
host at VIN at the time), but she said they were really good ones..... i think 
some of them HAVE been answered since--maybe i'll try to find it....

but yeah, the scientists are NOT going to say it's so until they've got data to 
back it up.... we need to pay attention, tho to what actually is 
SAID--"transmission" v "infection," in this case; "most cats" v "all cats," and 
my original question to you that started this: "what did you mean by "tested?!"

the other thing that has to be kept in mind is that just because a cat has a 
virus in its body, ANY virus, all things that happen to it are NOT gonna be 
related to that. you will never convince some people of that, however, just as 
time has proven that no amount of science about HIV will convince some people 
that you can't get it in some of the ways some still say you can. so, in terms 
of liability as well as science, the professionals are not gonna say, "this 
will NEVER happen," because if a cat shows up with a carcinoma on its left back 
paw, and is FeLV, you can BET that some lawyer, somewhere, is gonna say that it 
was caused by the FeLV, and now the rest of their cats are in danger---ie, they 
are covering their furry little butts.

oh, the vaccination question. another area where not enough is known, but oy, 
there are more definite opinions than discarded needles. definitely ask your 
vet about the booster for pequita; if you aren't comfortable with her answer, 
just ask her if she would mind contacting a cat-only practitioner (who are 
USUALLY more up to date on feline conditions, hopefully), what the current 
protocol is. that should NOT threaten her in the least, and she can then work 
with them about the risks/benefits re: the crf. )

everyone: do you have copies of the most recent vaccination protocols????? with 
the info on NOT giving all of them in the scruff? and which rabies and FeLV 
vaccines do not have adjuvants, which are considered the culprits in causing 
injection-site sarcomas? if not, i just saved the 2007 protocols to hard drive 
the other day (yeah, another one of those, oh, hail, but WHERE?); i'm SURE 
others on this list know which are the safest FeLV vaccs.


another one of my patented objective responses.


On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Sharyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

MC, I read the Merck info when Sissy and Rocket, now 9 mo. old, 1st tested 
positive.    What concerns me is the last statement
"Uninfected cats in a household with infected cats should be vaccinated; 
however, other means of protecting uninfected cats (eg, physical separation) 
should also be used. Constant exposure to FeLV-infected cats is likely to 
result in viral transmission regardless of vaccination status."
My Pequita, going on 16, was dx with CRF 2 1/2 yrs ago.  Since then the only 
vaccine she has gotten is rabies.   I'm taking Stormie, a 10 mo. old negative 
rescue, in for her FeLV booster shot Monday.   I'll talk to the vet then about 
a booster for Pequita.  
Rocket is thriving and is asymptomatic.  Sissy has had enlarged lymph nodes 
since her rescue in Feb.    The swelling has gone down since she was spayed and 
I had her baby molars removed.  My concern for Pequita and Stormie needing her 
follow up booster are the main reasons they are quarantined in the bedroom.  
Tiki, my healthy 4 yr old, is current on her FeLV boosters. 
The babes are quarantined in a dog crate in my garage at night and an outside 
cat enclosure during the day.  I was concerned about them stressing Sissy and 
Rocket.  I had the babies in their bathroom the 1st night and it seemed to 
upset them.  Right now I have 9 cats on 5 different diets.  Starting to wear me 
out but you do what you have to.
It appears mine got FeLV by nursing from an infected Mother since Stormie from 
the same colony tested negative.   
To be honest I can not afford to test the cats I will be TNRing.  I can make 
sure they don't have any more kittens thereby preventing infected kittens.  And 
I can make sure they eat well.  I will not PTS a cat who appears to be 
healthy.  It took 3 visits to the vet with Sissy and Rocket before they 
believed me that these girls were not going to be PTS and they might as well 
start folders for them. 
Thanks again for the info. 


--- On Sun, 7/20/08, MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Introducing Daisy's Babies
Date: Sunday, July 20, 2008, 5:53 PM

unfortunately, not enough vets know as much as they really ought to. many, many 
times i wish that i knew MORE, because i am NOT a vet, i am NOT a virologist, 
and just do my best to make the things i've found clearer to others--and hope 
that those who know more than i do, will do likewise!

i think that EVERYONE who has a FeLV, and who knows one, or who ever has loved 
one, needs to play out copies of--of have the url to tattooed where they can 
show it everyone--the most recent merck manual, where they've got the most 
up-to-date figures about how many cats do NOT remain viremic after 
exposure..... shelters, rescues, vets, people who claim to follow alley cat 
allies' policy yet in practice test all cats and then KILL felvs (yet brag 
about the FeLVs they have at home): there are no excuses for ignorance, and now 
that the anecdotal info that the brave people who came before us is reaching 
the mainstream, ignorance about FeLV is a CHOICE when made by professionals, 
veterinary or rescue. 

here's that link again, and while i DO get tired of posting it, oh, well, if i 
don't (and you don't, and you don't, and you, there, over in the corner 
snuggling with your cute little FeLV baby, don't), no one else will.....) The 
Merck Veterinary Manual -Feline Leukemia Virus and Related Diseases: 

do you have other cats? (yeah, i know, i could go back and reread everything, 
but.....) are you isolating the little ones because of their FeLV status, or 
presumed status? are the older ones vaccinated against FeLV? if so, you really 
don't have to worry about them mixing with the young ones if the adults are 
healthy.... as the old-timers on this list can tell you, so far no one has been 
able to find a single, documented case of a TRUE negative (tested at least 
twice, with enough time for exposure and seroconversion times taken into 
consideration) becoming positive from LIVING with (closely, not just breathing 
on in passing) a TRUE positive (as above; testing positive over time, using at 
least two kinds of tests). current vaccination efficacy rates at 95% (yes, i am 
trying to find WHERE that figure is hiding in my hard drive; i know it was 
susan little, dvm, of the winn feline foundation, that gave that figure to a 
cat-health list in the past two or three
 years. many places state--not always with any proof or citation--that cats 
seem to develop a natural immunity to the FeLV virus around the age of one 
year, and with the KNOWN high percentage quoted in the merck re: ability to 
remain or become negative after exposure, anyone can see how miniscule the risk 
is for a vaccinated cat.

is there a risk? of course there is. is it a higher risk than the same negative 
cat is going to have some genetic defect in its own history you have no 
knowledge of? i'm starting to think the latter is a much higher probability....

you might want to talk with some of the folks who have positives running around 
their houses with the rest, now and in the past, and see why they made that 

i wish that i could tell you that these little ones will, indeed, throw off the 
virus on their own and be as adoptable as any others. kittens with FeLV still 
appear to have less of a chance at a long life than those infected later in 
life, but we don't know enough to say why, and which ones have the best chance, 
nor what we can do to ensure that they get that absolute best chance. 

thank you for loving them. that's the best gift of all, anyway.


On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:49 PM, Sharyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Thanks MC for explaining the ELISHA test.  I had Mattie tested when her Mom. 
Daisy, was spayed.  A lady here on the Eastern Shore drives up to MD once a 
month to a vet who does low cost spaying for rescues.   She doesn't know 
anything about FeLV and just relayed the vets comments.  
Sissy and Rocket have had two ELISHA tests 4 months apart.  When I 1st rescued 
them and again when they were spayed.  Since they were FeLV+ I went with the 
local high cost vet for the spaying.   Didn't want them stressed any more than 
necessary.  I plan to have the IFA test done late this yr.  Both are currently 
the picture of health and tired of being quarantined in the bedroom.  
I have read the info on the Ally Cats web site.  I agree that healthy cats 
should not be PTS.  The Yahoo Rescue group I belong to feels that TNR kitties 
should not be tested as long as they are healthy when spayed/neutered.   Like 
the military 'don't ask, don't tell' philosophy.  The exception is any cat that 
will be placed for adoption.
There were 5 kittens in Sissy and Rocket's litter,  One vanished.  One, 
Daisy, has been TNR and I have one, Mae, to go.  No idea who their Mom was.  I 
haven't see any likely candidates around the dumpster site.  With 3 negative 
inside cats I just can't take them all in.   I think I have lined up a forever 
home for 2 of the babies, Bright Eyes and Houdini, in a home with FeLV+ cats.  
Since Mattie is blind and Capt.CJ only has sight in one eye, I'll keep them.  
So far I have just had Mattie tested.  No reason not to believe all 4 babies 
are positive.  I will have them tested when they are spayed.   Maybe, since 
they are no longer nursing and eating well, they can kick it.
Thanks for your input.

--- On Sat, 7/19/08, MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Introducing Daisy's Babies
Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008, 2:59 PM 

just wondering if you are working with alley cat allies, and following their 
protocol re: testing and releasing/treating FeLV cats? my understanding is that 
they do not endorse euthanizing positive, asymptomatic cats, so testing daisy 
would only give you some health information. i believe they have a really good 
explanation for how they've come to their decisions re: testing--i am also very 
aware that their decision regarding this is controversial. all the of the 
experienced feral rescuers i know personally, however, whether they have 
specific experience with FeLV or not, have said the same thing: we do NOT kill 
healthy cats just because they MIGHT get sick at some point.

what a concept!

and also not sure what you mean when you say the cats have tested 
positive--using which tests? how far apart? 

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Sharyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I have been feeding a dumpster colony of kitties for several months with the 
goal of doing TNR (trap/neuter/release) for those that I can not rescue.  Of 
the 3 kittens I rescued 2, Sissy and Rocket, were FeLV+.  They are about 9 
months old now and are doing well.  Both have test positive twice.
Their sister, Daisy, had a litter before I was able to TNR her.  The kittens 
were approx. 4 weeks old when I got them.  I took them because 1 had both eyes 
stuck shut and 1 had 1 eye stuck shut.  The next day I was finally able to trap 
Daisy using a kitten as bait in the carrier.    Daisy has since been spayed and 
released.  The babies have received one worm treatment, got terramycin salve in 
their eyes for a week, and have lysine added to their food.  
It appears that Mattie will be blind.  She is the biggest of the 4 and very 
feisty.   I had her tested and the vet said she was very, very, very FeLV+.  No 
idea what 3 verys mean.  CJ may have some limited vision in her bad eye.  
Bright Eyes and Houdini (escaped from the dog crate twice now) seem healthy.   
I am adding L-Lysine and Mega C Plus to their food.  I am looking for advice on 
what else I can do to help them throw off this virus.  
They will each be tested when I have them spayed.   Sissy and Rocket were 
several months old when I rescued them.  Didn't know if starting treatments 
earlier would improve the odds that they could beat this.   Any advise on how 
to proceed with now 5 1/2 wk old kittens would be appreciated.
By the way Stormie, same colony but different Mom from Sissy, Rocket and Daisy, 
tested negative.  I did not have Daisy tested.  I knew I could not afford to 
keep her if she was positive and simply do not have the disposition to have 
a cat PTS simply because she is positive.   At least she will not have any more 
litters.  There is one more sister, Mae, that I have been trying to trap for 
Sharyl Sissy, Rocket and the babies

Felvtalk mailing list

Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
Maybe That'll Make The Difference....

Felvtalk mailing list

Felvtalk mailing list

Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
Maybe That'll Make The Difference....

Felvtalk mailing list

Felvtalk mailing list

Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors!
Maybe That'll Make The Difference....

Felvtalk mailing list

Felvtalk mailing list

Reply via email to