On 12 Apr 2005, at 10:50 AM, Raymond Horton wrote:
I quote Brahms, mention G_d, and all of a sudden, I'm Mark Furman or Hitler.
Oh fercrissakes. First off Raymond, you were never personally attacked, nobody mentioned your politics, and nobody said *you* were full of shit. Much less compared you to Mark Furman or Hitler. (And you complain that *we* have a persecution complex?)
Do David and Darcy realize that they have a sore spot if they cannot even read an opinion concerning inspiration from one of the greatest composers of the Western world?
You are the one who cannot apparently stomach it if some of us want to disagree vehemently with the notion that you have to be religious to be any damn good as a composer. We are perfectly capable of reading and understanding what Brahms wrote, but apparently, that's not enough. We must also agree -- or at least, not state our disagreement too vociferously.
But "sore spot" -- you're damn right. Someone says I'll never amount to anything as a composer because I don't believe in the supernatural, and furthermore that none of the atheist composers I've studied (and studied with) were any damn good either -- sure, that's a bit of a "sore spot," Raymond. I freely admit to having a "sort spot" when it comes to irrational bigotry.
Do you realize you are trying to equate ethnicity with choice of faith? Absurd!
Well, not to belabor the obvious, but what I mentioned was Judaism, which is both an ethnicity and a faith.
But seriously, what difference does *that* make? If Brahms had said "No Muslim will ever be a great composer," how is that any less offensive? Or any less full of shit?
My biggest mistake was in taking one Brahms line which would cause such a commotion out of context and posting it here. But I was reacting to David's expectorating, I suppose. But I thought we were all grown-ups, and could read different opinions.
Look, you are the one having the trouble "reading different opinions." Nobody's trying to censor you or persecute you. Nobody's making blanket statements about all religious people (like, oh, say, just for instance, "No religious person will ever be a great composer in today's world"). Nobody's even saying anything bad about Brahms as a composer, for crying out loud. We just happen to think that, on this one issue, Brahms was full of shit. It should go without saying that lots of great composers throughout history have said lots of things that were full of shit. If you can't deal with someone pointing that out without getting the vapors, well, that's your problem, not ours.
You will also see, despite, several messages to the contrary, that in my first message, I did not quote Brahms "approvingly"
Exactly how naive do you think we are? Your tacet endorsement of the sentiment at the time you quoted it was crystal clear, and you've gone on to endorse it several times since.
I fail to see anything "offensive" in quoting the opinions of Brahms on divine inspiration in a discussion of "the spiritual and inspirational aspect of composition"
Here's a hint -- statements that take the following form: "Persons in category X will never be any damn good at Y" -- where there isn't an absolutely unambiguous causal relationship between "being in category X" and "ability to do Y" -- are almost always offensive. And those who make them are almost always full of shit.
- Darcy ----- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY
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