On 2 Aug 2005 at 9:17, Jim Williams wrote: > Hi David, > > Here are some thoughts... > > >From: "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >1. writing to CD-R/RW is problematic. > > [snip] > > >Dragging and dropping in Windows Explorer, i.e., treating the drive > >like any other removable media (which was possible in previous > >versions of Windows). > > Absolutely. Packet-writing is a mess. But, hasn't this always > required a third-party driver? . . .
Er, yes, of course -- but it's always been provided by the OEM hardware manufacturer, and WORKED. In the case of WinXP, it is provided but doesn't work reliably. > . . . However, with CD media being so > inexpensive, I treat it as a write-once medium (I don't ever use > CD-RWs). Relatively decent writable DVD media can even be had for > about $1 per 4.7 gig disc. But you are correct, this write support > requires third-party software. I don't deal with CD-RW, either, and my clients don't use it. But they do write multiple times to a single unclosed CD-R. I do believe that this is the main source of the problem, but it was *not* a problem in previous versions of Windows (which had 3rd-party software providing the writability as described). > >2. Windows does not natively support DVD drives. > > [snip] > > >The DVD drive doesn't work. The hardware is detected, but it only > >reads CD-ROMs. It won't read DVDs of any type. There were Win2K DVD > >drivers for that particular model of Dell box, and I downloaded and > >attempted to install them, but it could never read DVD drives (unless > >they had a CD-ROM compatibility layer). The client doesn't need a DVD > >drive (it was a free option when they purchased the machine; it was > >pretty much standard equipment on all Dell boxes by that point), so > >we didn't pursue it with Dell tech support. > > That really sounds like a hardware problem to me. . . . Well, the DVD drive worked before with WinXP, but doesn't with Win2K, so it doesn't seem to me to be a hardware problem, as the hardware previously worked fine. It looks like a driver problem, one which, I agreee, is puzzling, in that simply read-only DVDs ought to work. > . . . A firmware or BIOS > upgrade may be available. WinXP provides a DVD-ROM driver, which > supports the DVD-ROM industry-defined MMC-3 specification - there is > no need for a third-party driver to obtain read support. Windows XP > *does* natively provide DVD-ROM read support. Write support requires > third-party software. As I said, the client didn't want to spend time or money on getting the DVD drive to work, as it was not something they had any plans to use, so I can't give definitive answers. Here's one issue that I thought of after signing off last night: I distinctly remember that Dell was providing DVD drives that were somehow tied in with the video card/drivers that you ordered. I assume this had something to do with playing DVD movies on the PC. Perhaps there is software that I missed that is required for interface with the video subsystem that somehow is also tied in with the data interface. I do know that the Win2K drivers for their video card (which had both an analog and a digital output) did not support the same set of features as the WinXP (and does not produce exactly the same really sharp image as the WinXP drivers), so perhaps that, too, is a related issue. I can't say. But the possibiliy that the DVD drive is somehow mixed up with video and so forth makes it, for me, something of a problematic technology, at least in the way it is implemented in the Dell machines from that time pariod. > >We went through all the troubleshooting with Dell, and they never > >went into the realm of the possibility of hardware failure -- all of > >their troubleshooting was directed at software/driver issues. When > >they suggested re-installing Windows as a solution, I escalated to a > >higher level of support, and eventually got an acknowledgment from > >them that they hadn't yet been successful resolving this kind of > >problem. > > I would be a little bit careful using Dell's (or any other > manufacturer's) tech support as a reliable means of diagnosing a > problem. While some of their staff certainly are knowledgeable, most > are just reading from a pre-determined checklist. If your problem > doesn't fit a pretty narrow set of criteria, the standard response is > to 'reinstall windows'. As well, they will generally avoid the notion > of hardware problems, as this then escalates a support request into a > much more expensive repair request. Well, I've dealt with Dell's tech support 100s of times over the last 10 years, and I know my way around the organization, even after the move of the first-line support to India. I know how to go through the steps that the first-line support people read off the screen, and I know how to help them get through it quickly. And I know how to escalate to 2nd-tier support. And I've also seen Dell bend over backwards to help people with problems, even when machines were out of warranty (recently, Dell walked a friend through installing a new modem to replace the original modem that had stopped working for some reason; and she wasn't a technical person -- far from it). So, I can't agree with you. Yes, they aren't immediately helpful and their policies are often designed to not solve the particular problem but to pass responsibility to the user. But I'm quite aware of that and know exactly how to work through it. And every tech support organization I've ever worked with, all brands and types of hardware included, has exactly the same approach. It's the only way they can do business. Last of all, I spent several hours with Dell troubleshooting the CD-R issue, and it never went in the direction of hardware failure, despite my suggestion that, perhaps, it should. And, indeed, the CD- R/RW drive works with 100% reliability now under Win2K, so it doesn't seem to me that it was a hardware problem at all. > >Writable disks require specific software installed on the machine to > >be able to read them (back in the days of taking my own CD-Rs and CD- > >RWs to older Win9x machines, I'd get to see the installation of this > >software onto a number of older machines that didn't already have the > >support for the writable drives). Non-writable CD-ROMs should not > >require any special support for the file system of a CD. I would > >assume that DVDs use a variation on the same file system, so it makes > >no sense to me that the DVD would be unable to read non-writable > >DVDs, but that is the case. > > Not necessarily true - for packet-writing (i.e. making your CD/DVD > writer function in the same manner as any other removable drive in > Windows), you will certainly need third-party drivers. But, as you've > discovered, this is a pretty unreliable and messy way of working with > CD/DVD writeable media. You need to have these drivers installed not > only to write to the disc, but also to read from it, so you can't just > bring that CD-RW over to another computer if you need to access its > data. However, if you just write with the standard ISO-9660 file > system (also UDF 2.0 for DVDs), Windows does not need any external > software/drivers to be able to read the disc, be it a CD or DVD. Well, that's basically the same thing I said, or intended to say (it was late, so maybe I bollixed it up). But you do seem to agree with me that the OS doesn't provide support for the full functionality of optical drives. But that's something of a non-issue, as I've had plenty of experience with 3rd-party software working very well (my first CD-R/RW was installed on Win95, and worked beautifully). As I've said repeatedly, WinXP changes the equation and causes problems with a subsystem that previously worked reliably in earlier versions of Windows (with the appropriate 3rd- party software). > >Backup scripts don't rust. > > [snip] > > >Well, I don't like to buy software when the same thing can be > >accomplished without it. Until WinXP, it was possible to use XCOPY, a > >built-in function of the OS. After WinXP, it's not reliable. > > Sure, but your script clearly has rusted. It no longer works reliably > in newer versions of Windows. . . But the fault is not with my script -- it's with the OS. > . . . This is due to a change in WinXP, of > course, and really has no bearing on the quality of the script. But, > practically speaking, the end result is the same. You should migrate > your clients forward to new solutions. . . . Actually, most of my clients are avoiding WinXP, because optical drive problems are only one of myriad WinXP problems. > . . . I would recommend Nero > (www.ahead.de) for CD/DVD writing, and Acronis True Image > (www.acronis.com) for a data backup solution. Yes, you will have to > purchase extra software, but these examples are very easy to use, and > most important, are reliable. With True Image, you can schedule > unattended incremental backups, as well as create an entire image of > your system onto bootable media in case of a serious system failure. > Once setup, your client has to do nothing except pop-in the CD or DVD > media. My clients prefer Win2K, and so do I. > Other options also exist - with hard drives being so cheap these days > (e.g. less than $1 a gig), you could put in a 120 gig hard drive and > schedule daily backups to it (completely unattended, the user wouldn't > have to do a thing) - and then do a weekly image of that drive to > CD/DVD media. That's actually what I'm doing these days with WinXP users -- simply putting in a backup hard drive and backing up to that. > >I categorically deny ever suggesting not purchasing a DVD or CD-ROM > >drive. I just posted a warning about potential problems. > > [snip] > > >I posted a warning about potential pitfalls and about basic > >weaknesses in WinXP optical drive support, nothing more. > > That is a bit of a half-truth. You were warning a Finale user who had > discussed purchasing the DVD of Finale 2006 that DVD support in > Windows XP was broken. I don't have access to the original message(s) > right now, but I inferred from the tone of your post that you were > suggesting to Windows users to *not* use DVD drives with WinXP (which > translates into not purchasing them). . . . The individual inquestion was evaluating two choices: 1. install a DVD drive to use the DVDs from MakeMusic, OR 2. order the CD-ROM version from MakeMusic. I was providing information that shows that choice #1 is not without potential problems. > . . . It seems that the other list > members who have responded to this thread also essentially read your > message as saying: "Don't use/buy DVD drives with Windows XP because > their support is problematic". Perhaps I made a connection that was > not intended, but this paraphrased statement is very misleading. DVD > media and drives work just fine in Windows XP. Well, there was a context to the original discussion which has been lost at this point. -- David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associates http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [email protected] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
