Title: Re: [Finale] Si vs. Ti - Do
On Feb 3, 2006, at 2:54 PM, dhbailey wrote:

That is my understanding.  Rodgers and Hammerstein left their undying mark on music theory for generations of Americans.

You give Oscar too much credit, David!  If you haven't noticed, their made-up solfege syllable mnemonics work ONLY in English, where he could play on the "ti"/"tea" homonym.  In Austrian German I suspect that the words would have been quite different, and wouldn't have rhymed at all.

Arkady wrote:

Dear Finale List, Can anyone point me to a good explanation on this topic, preferably with a
few web links: Si Do vs Ti Do? I grew up with Si, and never heard of Ti unTil:) I got to NYC from Ukraine.

And I grew up with "ti" and never heard of "si" until I was much older.  And it still has a fairly exotic sound to my ear.

Ever since, I never "accepted" Ti, but it seems like Julie Andrews has
won:)... But, jokes aside, am I to assume that there was no Ti in this world, unTil:)
they needed a rhyme in The Sound of Music?!

No, you are not.  It may or not be an Americanism, but it's been around for a long, long time.

And, if Ti existed before The Sound of Music, how and why was it invented?

Andrew Stiller answered:

The use of Ti has been standard throughout the English-speaking world for more than 200 years. It was introduced as part of a reform of solmization making each syllable contain a single consonant, unique to that note, followed by a single vowel. Ti thus replaced Si because the letter S was already in use for So (which replaced the former Sol).

The New Grove I articles on Solfege and Solmization do not give answers to Arkady's questions, but do make it clear that the matter is ANYTHING but simple.  Thomas Morely (in "A Plaine and Easy Introduction to Practicall Musicke"--which is neither plain NOR easy!) was still using Guido's system for music education almost completely unchanged in the late 16th century, so it would appear that the replacement of ut with do and the addition of the seventh degree was not earlier than the 17th century (perhaps earlier on an individual basis, but not as a generally accepted change).

Rogers and Hammerstein have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Guido's original system only went as far as La. When it became necessary to add a 7th syllable, it was made Si, for "Sancte Iohannes"--the next line of the chant "Ut queant laxis" from which all the other syllables had been taken.

This may or may not be true, but Guido definitely didn't do it.  And I'm not sure that those who DID do it would have known about that hymn and Guido's use of it to generate his tone syllables, since the syllables themselves had been in independent use for several centuries.
(however "Sancte Johannes" does not in fact incorporate the note Si/Ti).

Exactly.

John


-- 
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
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