On Jan 22, 2009, at 8:42 AM, David W. Fenton wrote:
But my understanding is that the Wiener article is claiming Beethoven
didn't call for alto trombone. I thought you were using the web
article to support that position, when, in fact, it seems to me to be
based entirely on the contrary assumption.
No, not Beethoven. Other, later composers, yes. Or no. Or maybe. 8-)
Some players make the assumption that the first parts were always
written for alto trombone right up to the 20th century, but this
article is trying to show where composer's intent, best practice at
the time, and actual first performance may not always intersect, so
as to guide modern players.
I didn't read the later parts of the article, but I found the
evidence adduced to be pretty weak tea. The original parts used by
the Vienna Philharmonic since its founding in 1842 still exist.
Surely examining those would say something about what performance
practices actually existed in that particular location throughout
much of the 19th century.
Yes, he did examine them, among other documents.
Is that mentioned in the article? As I said, I didn't read the whole
thing...
Yes. The whole thing is pretty exhaustive and goes on in intricate
detail. I skimmed some parts myself...
The point here for
these composers was that the first parts were written in alto clef
(probably a result of tradition), reference is made to "alto
trombone", but the first part was most likely played on tenor. This
is where the "three tenor" section becomes more usual, historically,
though it isn't a slam dunk by any means.
Well, that argument makes a hash of using any evidence from
contemporary scores/parts for the argument. Has anyone looked at,
say, the Vienna Phil's pay records? Do they document who played what
pieces?
Yes, the Vienna Phil at the time is pretty well-documented, even
before this article. For other orchestras, he had to do some digging.
I know some major players who play Brahms symphonies on an alto,
while others shiver in disgust at the very concept.
Modern practice is modern practice and doesn't really tell us
anything about what Brahms might have wanted, or what his
contemporaries would have done.
No, I was just making a comment on how modern players use the same
information to come to radically different conclusions for a modern
performance. The original point (way, WAY back a number of quote
levels ago!) was that ATB sections did not continue as far past the
time of Beethoven as everyone previously thought, in the intents of
the composers. Brahms, Dvorak, Rossini and Berlioz are the main
composers affected. I don't think this writer has an axe to grind; he
is just presenting the evidence that he dug up.
It is a great resource for orchestral trombonists who are trying to
understand the role of their instrument in certain repertoire, and
shows how caution has to be applied when you rely too much on the
appearance in the score.
Seems to me that boils down to nothing more than being sure you're
using critical scores, rather than depending on some Eulenberg
miniature score that's probably 10 or more generations away from the
composer's original (with some exceptions, of course -- the Bruckner
scores are actually taken almost directly from the original
bowdlerized editions of Bruckner's symphonies).
No, even the autograph score won't give you all the information.
Er, it gives you information, just not a definitive answer.
We agree.
I found the parts of the article I read to be rather vague on the
historical information, to be honest. That's one of the reasons I
don't find the musicological argument compelling, however good his
advice may be on a practical basis.
Yeah, that's the nature of old stuff where you have incomplete
information. Even without all the facts, though, you still have to
play the darned thing, and what are you going to do? You read between
the lines and make your best decision based on what is there and what
you are able to do. He WAS writing the article to guide players, and
he makes no secret of that.
Christopher
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