On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 02:50 AM, Brendan Lane Larson wrote:
lenny, can you help me with the following:
wait, hold a sec... I don't claim all that you say. I really don't think you understand what I said.
It's XFree86, not Mac OS X, that we're discussing. XFree86 is a X Window Server that runs on many platforms.
1.) How did Tenon acquire this blackmail option over the Macintosh (Mac OS X specifically, not Mac OS 9?) implementation of Hardware OpenGL for Xfree86 in the first place?nobody said "blackmail"
2.) When did Tenon acquire this blackmail option on Hardware OpenGL?
the word is "racketeering"
XonX ported XFree86 so it would compile in Darwin (Mac OS X's underlying layer)
but "port" is kind of the wrong word...
they didn't need to provide a missing infrastructure
the way one might use GUSI and Cygwin to do
to get UNIX programs to run on Mac OS 9 and Windoze
http://www.cygwin.com/ - http://www.iis.ee.ethz.ch/~neeri/macintosh/gusi-qa.html
Darwin is real (Univ of Calif) BSD UNIX
running on the (Carnagie Mellon) Mach kernel
basically XonX had to adjust for some goofiness we have with shared libraries
and this is the necessary component that enables HW OpenGL support.
XonX also came up with the idea for the XDarwin launcher for Aqua.
XonX didn't exactly invent the wheel here...
it was mainly about realizing it could be compiled easily on Mac OS X.
Like a lot of people recently...
it occurred to me that I could run ms-windoze programs more quickly
using WINE by running a minimal UNIX-X11 combo on Virtual PC
and then forwarding the X Windows to my Mac OS X's X11... avoiding MS Windoze.
It doesn't mean I'm a genius... it was just something that could be done.
It was a drag to do but I did it... XonX's effort was a lot like that.
3.) What part of XFree86 and/or X (X11R6.4?), among the numerous many components and pieces that comprise Xfree86 and X, is the *specific* component(s) that provides Hardware OpenGL capability, when compiled for the Macintosh (Mac OS X)?GLX... but it's part of the XFree86 package.
The key is the link between GLX and the host platform's OpenGL libraries.
HW OpenGL support in XFree86 relies on two things:
* a shared or static link
* HW OpenGL libraries in the first place.
XonX wrote original code that enabled shared library support in XFree86.
Apple wrote the OpenGL libraries that connected to ATI and NVIDIA hardware.
Only on Mac OS X was this link payware... and herein lies the mystery.
Compiling XFree86 on Darwin was difficult for XonX because they're just people.
Apple has unique knowledge because they own NeXT and make Mac OS X.
Apple was helping XonX in their efforts to get XFree86 running on Darwin
but clearly they were have a difficult time getting a straight answer
about why Tenon was selling XonX's HW code while XonX released SW-Only OpenGl
when the link relied on Apple's OpenGL code in the first place...
Apple was only involved in helping XonX as a nicety in the first place
trying to score points in open-source work that wasn't related to Mac OS X...
but when this mystery about denying free HW OpenGL support while Tenon sold it
started to drive away big customers because it was free on every other platform
Apple simply said "screw you" to whatever the mystery was with Tenon and XonX.
They compiled XFree86 for themselves and released it... PROBLEM SOLVED.
Some try to defend XonX by saying that their HW-OpenGL-enabled XFree86
was available on the CVS server... but that blocks the majority of the market
and it wasn't exactly common knowledge until I began bitching about it.
Most people use Fink/FinkCommander as compiling stuff manually is beyond them.
The reality of the releases available to the common people was SW-OpenGL-only.
Plus, if it was free... why weren't the other packagers of XFree86 on Mac OS X
allowed to include the HW OpenGL version on their shareware CDs???
4.) How did Apple deprecate Tenon's blackmail option? Did a patent owned by Tenon finally expire? Did Apple license a patent or license software from Tenon? If so, at what cost? I'm an Apple shareholder and would like to know.forget the word patent...
XFree86's license is open and free
The mystery was why only Tenon had HW OpenGL support
and XonX wasn't releasing it too... especially as XonX did all the work.
We don't know how Tenon kept XonX from releasing it... that's the mystery.
Blocking others from releasing something
so you can be the only source
is called RACKETEERING.
Sometimes the government controls special licenses
so that they can conduct alcohol sales (State Liquor Stores, for example)
or for others that they deem legally entitled to control a market.
Tenon didn't have any right to be blocking others
yet they were doing it anyway... that's why it's CRIMINAL RACKETEERING.
Microsoft did it to DRI (the original authors of DOS)
when they closed out DR-DOS to make sure MS-DOS was the only source.
Standard Oil did it to local service stations
when they'd move next door and drop the price of gas to a penny...
then raise it back to normal when the other station went out of business.
It's even worse here because Tenon was blocking a free program from free release so they could profit from selling it when they had no role in writing it
and no license/patent/whatever to restrict it.
5.) Under what license does Apple's release of the specific component(s) comprising Hardware OpenGL for Xfree86 on the PowerPC architecture fall? GPL? LGPL? APSL? Something else? Does not Apple's release of X11 contain proprietary code?
Apple is releasing all code in the "X11 for Mac OS X" package except for the Quartz-WM window manager. Quartz-WM is nice but nobody says you can't use one of the 100+ other ones. I really like XFWM/XFCE.
Jeez, get some cultural references...Thank you for further elaborating, lenny.
you're addressing a legendary comedian who died in 1966.
I'm the father of Stand-Up Comedy, for christ's sake!
I'm the guy who made it okay to say "fuck" in public.
Giving people the finger is a great honor to my legacy.
I get these long letters with "lenny this" and "lenny that"...
my personal favorite is when they address me as "Mr. Bruce".
I hate to break it to ya but up here in heaven... licensing doesn't matter.
Everybody knows Jesus uses Mac. I optimized His Titanium Powerbook last week.
I believe this is a relevant topic that should not be dismissed. Please help me to understand the explicit differences between Xfree86 (that I am still currently running via Fink installation with XDarwin) and Apple's X11. I never want to get myself into a situation where the software I'm using is proprietary. I can tell that you're happy about Apple's release of X11 and Tenon losing its grip, but I am afraid to download Apple's X11 and install it ... fearful that I might get hooked into something proprietary.
Nope, the single proprietary part is Quartz-WM. Want to stay free of it? It's easy. Simply change your .xinitrc file at the end to exec something else.
Furthermore to my worry about any part of X11 released by Apple under APSL (or some other restrictive license), there has been some controversy recently about the APSL, in addition to the DMCA. See that proclus of GNU-Darwin is dropping PPC support of GNU-Darwin:I agree that Apple isn't very comfortable in the Open Source world
but ironically they released "X11 for Mac OS X" to ensure it would be free.
I've explained already that Apple has no interest in X11
because they are furthering the NeXTStep concept...
http://www.macslash.org/article.pl?sid=02/12/18/2332242&mode=flatThus, in line with what proclus has said about his policy in the context of the APSL needing a "revision", and thus no longer supporting or distributing any software which links to proprietary libraries, I'd like to know just what the heck is going on here with Apple's X11 and what Tenon's legacy is regarding the Hardware GL for Xfree86.{snip}
You have to realize that GNU-Darwin is trying to replace the Linux kernel with the Mach kernel and replace every other part of the Linux core with OpenStep. GNU-Darwin was only with XonX until they got XFree86 up and running. Others went forward to integrate XFree86 with Mac OS X's Aqua. The PPC market for OpenStep is smaller than microscopic because most people with PPC hardware have Mac OS X and their X11 needs are already served for free anyway now. The GNU-Darwin people are talking about Darwin WITHOUT Aqua. How many people do you know who run that?
What about the future of XDarwin???
XDarwin is the link to let Aqua users launch XFree86. Apple calls theirs "X11"... it's not a genius piece of software.
Thank you very very much for helping me further understand this very important topic.
Hey, no problem... I'm sorry I had to bitch this loudly to get HW OpenGL in Mac OS X's XFree86... like every other platform has. lenny bruce I am not a comedian, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am Lenny Bruce. ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! http://www.vasoftware.com _______________________________________________ Fink-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-users
