> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mikael Olsson
[...]
> "Marc E. Mandel" wrote:
> > 
> > [firewall management interfaces...]
> >
> > - An https management interface where both the firewall and the
> > administrator(s) have valid certificates.
> 
> Hmm.. for what kind of environment? Aren't you worried about 
> all the client-side vulnerabilities in browsers?

What's your attack scenario for this, Mike? Client-side browser holes
are usually only a problem if we're talking about malicious servers, but
you seemed to be suggesting that there was a potential vulnerability
when the browser is used by the firewall manager as a "live" Internet
browser at the same time. Is that a real attack, or an Akavit dream?
More detailed info please. 8)

I only ask because HTTPS _should_ be the best way to do this. There
should be, somewhere, a reference good, strong HTTPS server for embedded
operations, which doesn't use crappy scripting to make it prettier. Mind
you, Gauntlet used/uses Java (NOT Javascript) in a standard browser,
which _should_ be fine as well. Where's the hole in that?

> > - a secure version of Simple Network Management Protocol 
> >(SNMP).[...]

And I'd like it installed by the tooth fairy, please.

(NB: I have nothing against devices spitting information _out_ via SNMP
to internal hosts. Whether or not my firewall is about to fall over from
heat or a bad disk is of interest to me. SNMP RW, however, was invented
by the devil to trick unwary admins into fatal mistakes.)

> > - an Secure Shell (SSH) implementation that supports both secure
> > telnet and secure ftp.
> 
> SSH has problems too; perhaps not so much design-wise as 
> complexity- wise, which the recent and not-so-recent stream 
> of bugs in various SSH implementations has shown us.

Weeellll...I don't yet have a fixed opinion about whether the keystroke
timing style attacks against the underlying crypto make it broken
design-wise. The have, obviously, also been implementation errors.

And SSH also limits us to a CLI, which, although nice, doesn't fulfill
the requirement of being a GUI. We can use SSH to carry encoded info
back and forward from some special app, but then we're back to the
specialised management app. I am not a GUI bigot - GUIs are fantastic
things for some tasks (and are also awful for others). GUIs that make
changes to text-editable files make me even happier.

> Granted, these problems could probably be worked around by writing 
> a minimalistic implementation that scraps SSHv1 compatibility 
> and a few other things that one really shouldn't need in a 
> firewall.
> 
> Then again, if I had to choose from the above three, SSH would 
> definately be my choice.
> 
> Regards,
> Mikael Olsson

Basically, I want standards driven GUIs that use crypto protocols I know
everything about - this is why I'm instinctively attracted to HTTPS,
even though I know HTTP sucks, and I know that browsers also suck. You,
a vendor, are telling me that it's better to use a custom-written app
with a "bare bones" crypto connection (which I read as "we wrote it
ourselves"). This _instantly_ starts my snake-oil detector ringing, but
I still think you're right given the apparent impossibility of writing a
browser / server combo that's not like swiss cheese. The problem is that
I now have to trust you (hypothetically), and your code-monkeys, to have
implemented a ground-up management app and comms protocol correctly.

Now that I think of it, I'm _living_ in Switerland and I haven't yet
seen any swiss cheese. Hmm.

Cheers,

--
Ben Nagy
Network Security Specialist
Mb: TBA  PGP Key ID: 0x1A86E304 

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