At 11:53 PM 2009/11/15, James Rose wrote:
>May I make some comments for clarification of the notion that
>"(differential) information is equatable (Identical?) with asymmetry",?
>Bateson did indeed bring in the distilled meme that "information is the
>difference that makes a difference".  Asymmetry indeed is a "differential
>domain" that meets Bateson's 'definition', so on the face of it might
>qualify as an alternate (if not more explicitly computation-related) 
>The antithesis meme for asymmety vis a vis information would be:
>"perfect symmetry ergo no information".   But what about the simple
>geometry of Decartes?!  A symmetric domain absolutely filled with

I don't see this, sorry.

> From the initial description and from posting remarks, it is clear to me that
>the information-distinction is not 'asymmetry' at all, but optional alternate
>frames of reference. Which by extension  includes alternate measuring
>systems - templates - models.  This indicates that 'information' would more
>correctly be defined as 'pattern differentials' .. under which 
>is only -one- sub-alternate "pattern".

My student, Scott Muller, in the book I previously mentioned, The Asymmetry:
The Foundation of Information, Springer 2007 was able to show that information
can be defined intrinsically to objects independently of such considerations.
Like Leyer, he used group theory. His unique contribution was to show that
a value can defined irrespective of perspective, and then different 
relative values
can be recovered using specific perspectives.

>Some thinkers may be more comfortable with the word 'relationship' instead of
>'pattern' ,, but the essential umbrellaing notion here is the same, 
>even with that
>word/meme substitution.

Pattern can be defined using group theory in terms of of symmetries and

>Symmetry/asymmetry is only one form of differential distinction, and is not a
>universal model form, applicable to all existential 
>'differences'.  Additionally,
>as noted above, 'symmetric systems' are innately constructed/organized with
>information content.
>"Information as asymmetry" is a myopic and limited notion.

It is the most general and foundational notions, Your versions are merely
special cases.


Professor John Collier                           
Philosophy and Ethics, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban 4041 South Africa
T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292       F: +27 (31) 260 3031  

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