Ø There are two ways we can use the idea "in-form".
Yes, this is the other notion of information. Shannon-type information does not inform, but is counter-intuitively defined as uncertainty (or probabilistic entropy) and measured, for example, in bits of information. It is based on probability distributions. Bateson (1973) and many others did define information as a difference which makes a difference. Probability distributions contain only differences. If these first-order differences make a difference in a second dimension then a system of reference is assumed for which the first-order difference may make a difference. This system of reference may then discard some incoming information as noise and provide meaning to other information. Perhaps, it is useful to call this meaningful information (or observed information) as different from the expected information (or uncertainty) in the case of Shannon-type information. The system of reference does not have to be an observer as is often presumed in the cybernetic tradition; it can also be discourse. Does this contribution make a difference for the discourse? The two notions of information are to be kept apart because otherwise the discussion becomes confused. Best wishes, Loet (a) A cannon ball can "inform" a wall - the energy and the "signal" are both delivered by the ball. Similarly an artist can in-form clay to create a work of art. In this case the recipient (wall, clay) is passive. (b) A relatively weak signal, say one broadcast by a radio station can "inform" a radio. The radio uses the form of the signal to modulate energy that comes from a different source - it selects the signal from many others (by tuning) and amplifies it using energy it gets from batteries or the grid. I think that (b) is how the term is used in a modern context while (a) is more historical. It is in the context of (b) that I pose the question about information being the form conveyed by data. In (b) the recipient plays an active role to select a particular signal which then modulates or informs some internal activity. We can think of human perception in this way - we detect and select signals and use them to create models of our environment. This (b) model can be used to describe a range of activity from Shannon type communication to biological (DNA) activity, but I am not sure it can be applied to chemical activity. To my "un-informed" way of thinking chemical interaction is more like (a) - a passive response - rather than a selective active response as in (b). Dick Stoute On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Gyorgy Darvas <darv...@iif.hu> wrote: The question can be put even so: Is there information only when the recipient is (or it is perceived) by a conscious human being? (in a weaker form: by a sensitive, brain-equipped animal?) or Can we speak about information between inanimate objects as well? (e.g., when a valence electron of an atom "feels" the electric field of the electron-shell of a nearby other atom.) Depending on the answers on the above questions, then we can ask, whether can we speak about information on "there is a valence electron", when there is no other atom at Coulomb-range to which this data were conveyed? In general: is information a subjective category, or independent of whether it was perceived by somebody/something? (Further, see my paper in "Information" FIS-Beijing issue, this summer.) Regards, Gyuri At 12:08 2011.10.04.ÿ, you wrote: Dear Dick, Replying to the following two questions may help: (1) Is there information in the situation there is no data ? (2) If yes, an example would be great; If no, is there information if no data is conveyed ? Best, Michel. 2011/10/4 Dick Stoute <dick.sto...@gmail.com>: > This is my first post to this list - so my apologies if I get it wrong. > > I am looking for arguments for/against the concept of information as "form > conveyed by data". Any references/ideas would be appreciated. > > Dick > _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis Recent publications online: - Mathematical description of a so far undisclosed symmetry of nature: http://arxiv.org/abs/0811.3189v1 - Physical consequences of a new gauge-symmetry and the concluded conservation law: http://www.springer.com/home?SGWID=0-0-1003-0-0 <http://www.springer.com/alert/urltracking.do?id=L1cdef9M852da2Saaa5614> &aqId=1788954&download=1&checkval=489b8c72cdf8948cf719b8838b49e656 - Spontaneous symmetry breaking in non-Euclidean systems: http://www.springerlink.com/content/k272555u06q2074w/?p=14dd4c9c5b5e4c1396b3 e4855a87e9e2 <http://www.springerlink.com/content/k272555u06q2074w/?p=14dd4c9c5b5e4c1396b 3e4855a87e9e2&pi=1> &pi=1 Symmetry Festival 2009 <http://videotorium.hu/hu/events/details/87,The_Symmetry_Festival_2009> , Keynote and Plenary lectures ______________________________________________________ Gyorgy Darvas <http://members.iif.hu/darvasg/> E-mail / Skype <mailto:%20darv...@iif.hu> ; S Y M M E T R I O N <http://symmetry.hu/> Address: c/o MTA KSZI; 18 Nador St., Budapest, H-1051 Hungary Fax: 36 (1) 331-3161 <tel:36%20%281%29%20331-3161> ; Phone: 36 (1) 312-3022; 36 (1) 331-3975 <tel:36%20%281%29%20331-3975> Monograph: Symmetry <http://books.google.hu/books?id=UYdsSrZF0mgC&dq=darvas+symmetry&printsec=fr ontcover&source=bn&hl=hu&ei=UKx7TP3XEpDIswaMmOSxDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=re sult&resnum=5&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false> ; Course of lectures <http://hps.elte.hu/courses/darvas.htm#English> _______________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
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