Dear Pedro,

Thank you, Pedro, for bringing up the question of logics. My suggestion of a 
Logic in Reality is to open the debate, rather than to claim it is the only 
"over-arching logic" possible. Nevertheless, it would be useful for me and 
perhaps others if you could make your critique more specific by pointing to at 
least one logic that is used biologically that addresses the dynamics of 
complex processes. So far, I have not identified any such logical system that 
is more than a metaphorical use of the term "logic" or refers to some more or 
less reproducible characteristics of such processes. Otherwise, logics seem to 
me to refer only to abstracted linguistic aspects of processes that of course 
follow classical propositional logic but equate to tautologies.

Because Logic in Reality is grounded in physics, it is able to express somewhat 
more about change, evolution, etc. than any logic of which I am aware. I would 
be glad to learn of other candidates for this role.

Thank you and best wishes,


----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----


Datum: 11.04.2012 10:44

An: <>

Betreff: Re: [Fis] Physics of computing

Dear John and colleagues,

Nice to hear that you are OK after that dangerous intoxication --our
best wishes for your complete recovery! 

About physical information I think that Landauer clarified the
panorama, at least concerning the relationship between information
theory and thermodynamics. According to his principle, any logically
irreversible transformation of classical information is necessarily
accompanied by the dissipation of at least k T ln(2) of heat per lost
bit (about 3 x 10 exp -21 Joules at 300 K temperature), where obviously
k is the Boltzmann constant and T the temperature. Recently this
principle has been verified experimentally (Nature, 8 March 2012, p.
187). By the way, in his past message Loet enters "Watts" in a similar
expression (?). To insist, Entropy and Information are dimensionless
and do not explicitly incorporate any units... About the quantum
management of info theory, it is another matter, quite more tricky. 

Beyond that immediate physicality, things get quite obscure as our
contradictory "meaning" messages witness. The point made by Joseph on
an overarching logic, is rather difficult to be maintained --at least
in my small province of the biological signaling pathways. Too many
logics are used biologically in too many different contexts or niches,
either molecularly or neuronally... I bet that they are not susceptible
of integration in any logical system.  Maybe Inbiosa parties would also
disagree with me in this regard.

best wishes to all,


John Collier escribió:


I have been in the hospital for almost three weeks due to
bleeding from warfarin. I had to have three blood transfusions and an
operation. I am only now getting my strength back. Some of my comments,
therefore, may be dated.

"Physical" has a variety of overlapping meanings (a
Wittgensteinian family resemblence). For example Quine takes the
physical to be anything accessible to the senses or inferences
therefrom. Ladyman, Ross, Collier an Spurrett take the physical to be
the most fundamental laws of our (part of) the universe. I did not
agree with this, among some other crucial points, so I was not a
primary author. Information is at least physical in both of these
senses. Quine's approach might make it entirely physical. I prefer to
relate it to the causal, which always has physical parametres, as far
as we know. But there are many ways of approaching this issue, and
disentangling them will be a major advance in foundations of
information theory.

My Best,

Professor John Collier  

Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal

Durban 4041 South Africa

T: +27 (31) 260 3248 / 260 2292

F: +27 (31) 260 3031

On 2012/03/16 at 01:19 PM, in message
<>, "Pedro C. Marijuan"
<> wrote:


I tend to disagree with the motto "information is physical" if taken
too strictly. Obviously if we look "downwards" it is OK, but in the
"upward" direction it is different. Info is not only physical then, and
the dimension of self-construction along the realization of life cycle
has to be entered. Then the signal, the info, has "content" and
"meaning". Otherwise if we insist only in the physical downward
dimension we have just conventional computing/ info processing. My
opinion is that the notion of absence is crucial for advancing in the
upward, but useless in the downward. 

By the way, I already wrote about info and the absence theme in a 1994
or 1995 paper in BioSystems...



Thanks John and Kevin to update issues
in information, computation, energy and reality.

 I would like point out to other
articles more focused in how coherence and entanglement are used by
living systems (far from thermal equilibrium): 

Engel G.S., Calhoun T.R., Read E.L.,
Ahn T.K., Mancal T., Cheng Y.C., Blankenship R.E., Fleming G.R. (2007)
Evidence for wavelike energy transfer through quantum coherence in
photosynthetic systems. Nature, 446(7137): 782-786.

Collini E., Scholes G. (2009) Coherent
intrachain energy in migration in a conjugated polymer at room
temperature.  Science, vol. 323 No. 5912 pp. 369-373.

Gauger E.M., Rieper E., Morton J.J.L.,
Benjamin S.C., Vedral V. (2011) Sustained Quantum Coherence and
Entanglement in the Avian Compass. Phys. Rev. Lett., 106: 040503.

Cia, J. et al, (2009)  Dynamic
entanglement in oscillating molecules.  arXiv:0809.4906v1 [quant-ph]



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50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Telf: 34 976 71 3526 (&amp; 6818) Fax: 34 976 71 5554

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