Bill,
if you go to
http://www.capurro.de/info5.html
you will find on p. 225 ff my interpretation of MacKay's information 
concept in the context of other theories of that time
See particularly footnote 440: "Information: that which determines form" 
and "that which justifies representational activity".
best
Rafael
> Dear All,
> I visited the von Foerster / Pask  Cybernetics Archive in Vienna (which 
> includes many MacKay texts) and went into depth related to MacKay in the 
> spring of last year. It is very interesting to read his ideas about 
> information as compared to the Shannon and Weaver's approach/definition.
>
> Does anyone know of a paper that systematically compares and contrasts their 
> work - MacKay with S&W ? Perhaps this is yet to be done...
>
> Sincerely,
> Bill Seaman
>
> On Apr 14, 2013, at 8:24 AM, John Collier <colli...@ukzn.ac.za> wrote:
>
>> I am afraid that it was my fault. I thought I recalled a quote, but actually 
>> it is an interpretation of Mackay. Sorry about that. Amazing that it spread 
>> so much, but that probably reflects that it is endemic in Mackay's work.
>>
>> John
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On 
>> Behalf Of Xueshan Yan
>> Sent: 14 April 2013 10:53 AM
>> To: fis@listas.unizar.es
>> Subject: Re: [Fis] fis Digest, Vol 570, Issue 2
>>
>> Dear Pedro, Dear Joseph,
>>
>> About the Milton Keynes Conference, i.e., about DTMD definition, we saw this 
>> quote long long ago, but there two different sayings: One is "Information is 
>> a distinction that makes a difference" from Donald M. MacKay in his 
>> "Information, Mechanism and Meaning" (1969), and another is "Information is 
>> a difference that makes a difference" from Gregory Bateson in his "Steps to 
>> an Ecology of Mind" (1972).
>>
>> Although I have checked it page by page in Donald M.
>> MacKay's book but can't found it, whereas it is easy to find "Information is 
>> a difference that makes a difference" in Gregory Bateson's "Steps to an 
>> Ecology of Mind" at page 230, 361, 339, etc., who can tell the accurate 
>> priority about DTMD?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Xueshan
>> 16:49, April 14, 2013   Peking University
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es
>>> [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of
>>> fis-requ...@listas.unizar.es
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:00 AM
>>> To: fis@listas.unizar.es
>>> Subject: fis Digest, Vol 570, Issue 2
>>>
>>> Send fis mailing list submissions to
>>>       fis@listas.unizar.es
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>
>> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
>> to
>>>       fis-requ...@listas.unizar.es
>>>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>       fis-ow...@listas.unizar.es
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>>> specific than "Re: Contents of fis digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. Re: FIS News (Moscow 2013) (joe.bren...@bluewin.ch)
>>>    2. Re: FIS News (Moscow 2013) (PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN
>> FERNANDEZ)
>>>    3. Re: FIS News (Moscow 2013) (Gyorgy Darvas)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:11:58 +0000 (GMT+00:00)
>>> From: "joe.bren...@bluewin.ch" <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch>
>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS News (Moscow 2013)
>>> To: <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>, <fis@listas.unizar.es>
>>> Message-ID:
>> <15776686.90091365786718476.javamail.webm...@bluewin.ch>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Pedro,
>>>
>>> Glad to hear from you. Your silence was, of course, expressive,
>>> containing much information . . .
>>>
>>> Now all of us will be waiting impatiently to learn about
>> the
>>> the new, exciting themes that were discussed at the Milton
>>> Keynes Conference.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> ----Message d'origine----
>>> De: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>>> Date: 12.04.2013 11:02
>>> À: <fis@listas.unizar.es>
>>> Objet: [Fis] FIS News (Moscow 2013)
>>>
>>> Dear FIS Friends,
>>>
>>> Apologies for my long silence. As I have already said
>> several
>>> times, my science management duties are killing not only
>> my
>>> time but also my nerve (well, not completely!). Imagine
>> what
>>> is happening with the financing and organization of
>> Spanish
>>> science these years...
>>>
>>> Anyhow, a couple of good news about our common Information
>>> Science endeavor. First, there has been an excellent conference in
>>> Milton Keynes, organized by the Open University, about Information
>>> ("the difference that makes
>> a
>>> difference"). Quite exciting discussions on our most dear themes, and
>>> some new ones that we have rarely addressed
>> here.
>>> The organizers, a very active team indeed, are cordially invited to
>>> lead a discussion session in our FIS list to continue with the
>>> conceptual explorations addressed in
>> their
>>> conference.
>>>
>>> And the second news is about an imminent FIS CONFERENCE, MOSCOW 2013,
>>> the Sixth FIS, and the 1st of the ISIS organization. It will be held
>>> this May, from 21 to 24 in Moscow. This time the Russian organizers
>>> have followed a singular procedure, a relatively closed conference
>> centered
>>> in the diffusion of information science in the Russian scientific
>>> community.  At the time being, to my knowledge
>> (I
>>> could not follow very well the process), only the members
>> of
>>> the ISIS board have been enlisted as foreign participants.
>>> But given that there will be several absences, interested
>> FIS
>>> parties might ask about their possible participation.
>>> The schedule is too tight for travels, visas etc, and
>> again I
>>> have to apologize for not having posted this info before (info glut!).
>>> In any case, am sure that our colleague Konstantin  Kolin (
>>> koli...@mail.ru ), leading organizer,
>> and
>>> member of the Russian Academy of Science, will be happy to
>>> respond to interested parties and help them to accelerate
>> the process.
>>> Best wishes to all
>>>
>>> ---Pedro
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de
>>> Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón
>>> (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13,
>> planta X
>>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (&amp; 6818)
>>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> fis mailing list
>>> fis@listas.unizar.es
>>> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>> scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>>
>> http://webmail.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20130412/
>> 48
>>> 3aa53f/attachment-0001.htm
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 10:26:41 +0200
>>> From: PEDRO CLEMENTE MARIJUAN FERNANDEZ
>> <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>
>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS News (Moscow 2013)
>>> To: fis@listas.unizar.es
>>> Message-ID: <fbefd0bc5440.51693...@aragon.es>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Dear Joseph and FIS colleagues,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the friendly message. Let me introduce you all
>> the
>>> organizing team of the Open University conference: Magnus Ramage,
>>> David Chapman, and Chris Bissell --they did a
>> great
>>> job there and we are fortunate that they have joined our
>> list
>>> too. As I invited them during the conference, they could chair our
>>> next discussion session, in a few weeks or days
>> if
>>> they wish. A short text of around 500 or 800 words with
>> some
>>> focus in themes discussed at Milton Keynes would suffice
>> to
>>> kick off the discussion. As other people have recently
>> joined
>>> the list, all of them should remind our strict limitation
>> of
>>> a maximum of two messages per week. This is a list emphasizing "slow
>>> thinking" and scholarship.
>>>
>>> By the way, my management experience during all these
>> months
>>> has lead me to think and start work on a new theme: the information
>>> flow in complex organizations. The properties
>> or
>>> limits of natural communication (conversation) in our
>> social
>>> groups determine the structural patterns of complex bureaucratic
>>> organizations...  terrible committees
>> included!
>>> Next weeks I will post more on that.
>>>
>>> best wishes
>>>
>>> --Pedro
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Mensaje original -----
>>> De: "joe.bren...@bluewin.ch" <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch>
>>> Fecha: Viernes, 12 de Abril de 2013, 7:12 pm
>>> Asunto: RE: [Fis] FIS News (Moscow 2013)
>>> A: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es, fis@listas.unizar.es <br>
>>>> <!--div.bwmail { background-color:#ffffff; font-family:
>> Trebuchet
>>>> MS,Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;
>> margin:0;
>>>> padding:0;}div.bwmail p { margin:0; padding:0;
>> }div.bwmail table {
>>>> font-family: Trebuchet MS,Arial,Helvetica, sans-serif;
>> font-size:
>>>> small; }div.bwmail li { margin:0; padding:0; }-->< Dear
>> Pedro,
>>>> Glad to hear from you. Your silence was, of course,
>>> expressive, containing much information . . .
>>>> Now all of us will be waiting impatiently to learn about
>>> the the new, exciting themes that were discussed at the Milton Keynes
>>> Conference.
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Joseph
>>>>
>>>> ----Message d'origine----
>>>> De: pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>>>> Date: 12.04.2013 11:02
>>>> À: <fis@listas.unizar.es>
>>>> Objet: [Fis] FIS News (Moscow 2013)
>>>>
>>>> Dear FIS Friends,
>>>>
>>>> Apologies for my long silence. As I have already said
>>> several times,
>>>> my science management duties are killing not only my
>> time
>>> but also my
>>>> nerve (well, not completely!). Imagine what is happening
>> with the
>>>> financing and organization of Spanish science these
>> years...
>>>> Anyhow, a couple of good news about our common
>> Information Science
>>>> endeavor. First, there has been an excellent conference
>> in Milton
>>>> Keynes, organized by the Open University, about
>> Information ("the
>>>> difference that makes a difference"). Quite exciting
>> discussions on
>>>> our most dear themes, and some new ones that we have
>> rarely
>>> addressed here.
>>>> The organizers, a very active team indeed, are cordially
>> invited to
>>>> lead a discussion session in our FIS list to continue
>> with the
>>>> conceptual explorations addressed in their conference.
>>>>
>>>> And the second news is about an imminent FIS CONFERENCE,
>>> MOSCOW 2013,
>>>> the Sixth FIS, and the 1st of the ISIS organization. It
>>> will be held
>>>> this May, from 21 to 24 in Moscow. This time the Russian
>> organizers
>>>> have followed a singular procedure, a relatively closed
>> conference
>>>> centered in the diffusion of information science in the
>> Russian
>>>> scientific community.  At the time being, to my
>> knowledge
>>> (I could not
>>>> follow very well the process), only the members of the
>> ISIS
>>> board have
>>>> been enlisted as foreign participants. But given that
>> there will be
>>>> several absences, interested FIS parties might ask about
>>> their possible participation.
>>>> The schedule is too tight for travels, visas etc, and
>> again
>>> I have to
>>>> apologize for not having posted this info before (info
>>> glut!). In any
>>>> case, am sure that our colleague Konstantin  Kolin (
>>> koli...@mail.ru
>>>> ), leading organizer, and member of the Russian Academy
>> of Science,
>>>> will be happy to respond to interested parties and help
>> them to
>>>> accelerate the process.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes to all
>>>>
>>>> ---Pedro
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto
>>> Aragonés de
>>>> Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica
>> de Aragón
>>>> (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
>>>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>>>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
>>>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> fis mailing list
>>>> fis@listas.unizar.es
>>>> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>> scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>>
>> http://webmail.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20130413/
>> d0
>>> f2fc57/attachment-0001.htm
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:28:45 +0200
>>> From: Gyorgy Darvas <darv...@iif.hu>
>>> Subject: Re: [Fis] FIS News (Moscow 2013)
>>> To: joe.bren...@bluewin.ch, <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>,
>>>       <fis@listas.unizar.es>
>>> Message-ID: <201304131030.r3dauiat003...@ortiz.unizar.es>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL:
>>>
>> http://webmail.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20130413/
>> 24
>>> efe12f/attachment-0001.htm
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> fis mailing list
>>> fis@listas.unizar.es
>>> https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>>>
>>>
>>> End of fis Digest, Vol 570, Issue 2
>>> ***********************************
>>>
>>
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>
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-- 
Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro
Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany
Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics 
(http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org)
Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information 
Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, 
South Africa.
Distinguished Researcher in Information Ethics, School of Information Studies, 
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA
President, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) 
(http://icie.zkm.de)
Director, Steinbeis-Transfer-Institute Information Ethics (STI-IE)
Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) 
(http://www.i-r-i-e.net)
Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany
E-Mail: raf...@capurro.de
Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21)
Homepage: www.capurro.de

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