Dear Colleagues,

I completely agree with Krassimir's position and on the importance of the issue 
on which it taken. Neither he nor I wish to say that there cannot be models and 
insights for science in religious beliefs, such as the Kabbala, but then John's 
diagram would be more appropriate if it had En Sof at the center rather than 

The statement "It-from-Bit is just information", further, requires analysis: do 
we 1) accept this as dogma, including the implied limitation of information to 
separable binary entities? or 2) assume that the universe is constituted by 
complex informational processes, in which the term 'It-from-Bit' is misleading 
at best, and should be avoided?

I feel particularly uncomfortable when dogmatic computational views such as 
those of Lloyd and Davies are presented as authoritative without comment, 
except by appeal to the authority of 'some physicists'. Those FISers who would 
like to see a reasonably considered rebuttal might look at my article in 
Information: "The Logic of the Physics of Information".

Best wishes,


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Krassimir Markov 
To: John Collier ; Stanley N Salthe ; fis 
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Dear John and Stan,
Your two hierarchies are good only if you believe in God.
But this is belief, not science.
Sorry, nothing personal!
Friendly regards

From: John Collier 
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 5:02 PM
To: Stanley N Salthe ; fis 
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!

Not quite the same hierarchy, but similar:



It from bit is just information, which is fundamental, on Seth Lloyd’s 
computational view of nature. Paul Davies and some other physicists agree with 

Chemical information is negentropic, and hierarchical in most physiological 




From: Fis [] On Behalf Of Stanley N Salthe
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 3:40 PM
To: fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!


Pedro -- Your list:


physical, biological, social, and Informational


is implicitly a hierarchy -- in fact, a subsumptive hierarchy, with the 
physical subsuming the biological and the biological subsuming the social.  But 
where should information appear?  Following Wheeler, we should have:


{informational {physicochemical {biological {social}}}}




On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <> 

Thanks, Ken. I think your previous message and this one are drawing sort of the 
border-lines of the discussion. Achieving a comprehensive view on the 
interrelationship between computation and information is an essential matter. 
In my opinion, and following the Vienna discussions, whenever life cycles are 
involved and meaningfully "touched", there is info; while the mere info 
circulation according to fixed rules and not impinging on any life-cycle 
relevant aspect, may be taken as computation. The distinction between both may 
help to consider more clearly the relationship between the four great domains 
of sceince: physical, biological, social, and Informational. If we adopt a 
pan-computationalist stance, the information turn of societies, of 
bioinformation, neuroinformation, etc. merely reduces to applying computer 
technologies. I think this would be a painful error, repeating the big mistake 
of 60s-70s, when people band-wagon to developed the sciences of the artificial 
and reduced the nascent info science to library science. People like Alex 
Pentland (his "social physics" 2014) are again taking the wrong way... Anyhow, 
it was nicer talking face to face as we did in the past conference!

best ---Pedro

Ken Herold wrote:


Sorry to have been too disruptive in my restarting discussion post--I did not 
intend to substitute for the Information Science thread an alternative way of 
philosophy or computing.  The references I listed are indicative of some bad 
thinking as well as good ideas to reflect upon.  Our focus is information and I 
would like to hear how you might believe the formal relational scheme of 
Rosenbloom could be helpful?


Ken Herold
Director, Library Information Systems
Hamilton College
198 College Hill Road
Clinton, NY 13323
315-859-4487 <>

Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)

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