Dear Nikhil and colleagues (Bob, Stan...),
Let me concur with Stan's arguments. I think you are working with
original ideas about two different instances of self-organization in
Nature where metabolic-energetic flows are modulated by third parties
in order to maintain some maximum of stability in a very complex
co-assemblage so that it may result compatible with the existing
limitations of the global environment. It is sort of a fiscal agency or
an energy police-body that keeps an overall adaptive order in the
multifarious exchange of flows.
The two instances you describe are widely independent, in spite of the
relative links existing (in the ecosphere, it is very difficult the
complete independence). Forcing them into a hierarchy is not the best
idea, in my opinion, as the two description are quite interesting,
original, and advanced by themselves--particularly in order to land on
the global problems of the economic order of our times. Connecting
meaningfully with the path discussed by Bob and his colleagues requires
quite a bit of further thinking. Economic organization is based finally
on symmetry and symmetry breaking at different "levels" (just from the
double-entry accounting of the agent to the collective market prices and
valuation of stocks, to the financial coupling with the "real" economy).
Like in the biological organization of information flows, there is a
generalized dialectics of balances and modulations, of symmetry and
symmetry breakings, yes, in some hierarchical framework. Unfortunately
the information/symmetry topic is far from being properly developed as a
"complexity engine", except maybe in physics, and we prefer indulging in
independent disciplinary conceptualizations, preferably inspired in
mechanics, that obfuscate understanding.
It is a rather difficult discussion... Further efforts from yours and
your colleagues, and other parties in the list would be needed. From my
part, this weekend I will re-read your papers and Bob's links. We cannot
renounce to advance in this discussion.
All the best--Pedro
Nikhil Joshi wrote:
Dear Stan,
You raise a very interesting and important question.
Recent findings suggest that mycorrhiza could modulate the rate of
assimilation of molecules (driven by changing rates of photosynthesis)
across groups of plants by modulating the flow of phosphorous (from
the subsoil sources) across competing autotrophic species. Such
modulation alters the overall conversion of geochemical (molecular)
resources into biomass. Hence the modulatory effects of mycorrhizal
modulation are at the level of molecular flows between geo-cycles and
autotrophs (level 1).
What is suggested here is that gut bacteria are involved in the
modulation of rate of reproduction of cellular and multicellular
species. Hence their effect is at a cellular level (level 2)
Hence the activities of the two modulator systems are at two different
scales- molecular and cellular.
A multilevel view reveals a growing complexity in the species involved
in exchange networks across ascending levels (compositional hierarchy)
from molecules, to cells, multicellular species, and social
Organization. A compositional hierarchy is also seen at each level in
the emergence of community structure at each level. However, I agree
that these observations do not constitute a complete description of
the hierarchal relationships in these systems. The developing a formal
hierarchical view would provide much clearer view of these systems and
their interconnections. Given my limited knowledge of formal
hierarchies, I would appreciate your assurance and views on this.
Thanking you,
Warm regards,
Nikhil
Sent from my iPhone
Nikhil Joshi
--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
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