Dear FISers A naïve view of hardrons interaction (Wikipedia animation below) would convince us that Quarks yes communicate. Animation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Nuclear_Force_anim.gif
The merriam-webster definition of Communication is: “an act or instance of transmitting”, “information transmitted or conveyed” Therefore, the definition of ‘communication’ depends on definition of ‘information’ that, I agree with Bob Logan, is context dependent. In my opinion, in a ‘Physics research’ context, Quarks will communicate if this approach is useful to solve problems. If the language and tools of theory of communication is useful to solve physics problems, that’s ok, they communicate. Remember the concept of ‘Energy’ only was defined when it was useful to solve thermal machines problems. The same approach was used by Tom Stonier: “Operationally -just as energy is defined in terms of its capacity to perform work - so is information defined in terms of its capacity to organize a system” (STONIER, 1996) He used the Shannon’s information Theory as starting point to redefine information to be useful to solve problems. In the same way, one could define (if it is useful) a ‘new’ type of communication that can help us understand the concept of ‘force’ as exchanging particles. However, as Stonier said, “Acceptance of the theory would require paradigm shifts in a number of interrelated areas”. Reference: STONIER, T. [Stonier] Information as a basic property of the universe.PDF. Biosystems, v. 38, p. 135–140, 1996. 2016-01-22 5:46 GMT-02:00 Joseph Brenner <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch>: > Dear FISers, > > The most scientific aspect of the recent exchanges is their existence. It > is obvious that some people feel more comfortable than others in ascribing > properties to quantum particles that are characteristic of the > thermodynamic world in which we exist, in particular difference (let us > forget, if possible, Peirce's 'mind'). > > At one point, I myself said that quantum particles are, following the > principles of Logic in Reality, distinguishable AND indistinguishable, the > former by virtue of a minimum difference in 'location' of two particles in > space-time, let alone any difference in properties. Today, I am less sure; > this description, and Bob's, begs the question of whether quarks change in > 'time'; what 'position' means; and whether the term 'dynamic' can properly > be used with regard to them. > > Pedro and others of you will note that we are returning to the questions > left unresolved in the discussion of Conrad's > 'fluctuons', namely, is it proper to refer to changes that occur in levels > that we cannot access, even with extensions of our senses, and not even > characterize as temporal or spatial, as information. As noted in the first > paragraph above, this seems to be turning out to be as much a psychological > question as a physical one. > > Best wishes, > > Joseph > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert E. Ulanowicz" <u...@umces.edu> > To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> > Cc: <fis@listas.unizar.es> > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 3:26 AM > Subject: Re: [Fis] _ RE: _ Re: Cho 2016 The social life of quarks > > > Just a few words to follow on Pedro's concerning Howard's question: > > From our perspective all quarks are completely indistinguishable and > homogeneous, so the practical answer to Howard's question is "No, quarks > cannot communicate --period!" > > It is possible, however, to imagine that quarks, being in large measure > wave packets, would at any instant be different from one another. One can > imagine multiple wave forms, dynamically changing with time. The > particular phasing between two quarks in the quantum vacuum could take on > any number of possibilities, and which possibility pertains at the time of > encounter would inform what kind of boson might result. Then it becomes > possible to speak of communication between them. It's just that we are > unable to access that level of interaction. > > Cheers to all, > Bob U. > > Dear FIS Colleagues, >> >> Thanks to Jerry and Koichiro for their insightful and deep comments. >> Nevertheless the question from Howard was very clear and direct and I >> wonder whether we have responded that way --as usual, the simplest >> becomes the most difficult. I will try here. >> >> There is no "real" communication between quarks as they merely follow >> physical law--the state of the system is altered by some input according >> to boundary conditions and to the state own variables and parameters >> that dictate the way Law(s) have to intervene. The outcome may be >> probabilistic, but it is inexorably determined. >> >> There is real communication between cells, people, organizations... as >> the input is sensed (or disregarded) and judged according to boundary >> conditions and to the accumulated experiential information content of >> the entity. The outcome is adaptive: aiming at the >> self-production/self-propagation of the entity. >> >> In sum, the former is blind, while the second is oriented and made >> meaning-ful by the life cycle of the entity. >> >> Well, if we separate communication from the phenomenon of life, from its >> intertwining with the life cycle of the entity, then everything goes... >> and yes, quarks communicate, as well as billiard balls, stones, cells, >> etc. Directly we provide further anchor to the mechanistic way of >> thinking. >> >> best regards--Pedro >> >> >> >> Koichiro Matsuno escribió: >> >>> >>> At 2:43 AM 01/19/2016, Jerry wrote: >>> >>> In order for symbolic chemical communication to occur, the language >>> must go far beyond such simplistic notions of a primary interaction >>> among forces, such as centripetal orbits or even the four basic forces. >>> >>> The quark physicist is quirky in confining a set of quarks, >>> including possibly tetra- or even penta-, within a closed bag with use >>> of a virtual exchange of matter called gluons. This bag is >>> methodologically tightly-cohesive because of the virtuality of the >>> things to be exchanged exclusively in a closed manner. In contrast, >>> the real exchange of matter underlying the actual instantiation of >>> cohesion, which concerns the information phenomenologist facing >>> chemistry and biology in a serious manner, is about something >>> referring to something else in the actual and is thus open-ended. >>> Jerry, you seem calling our attention to the actual cohesion acting in >>> the empirical world which the physicist has failed in coping with, so >>> far. >>> >>> Koichiro >>> >>> *From:*Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Jerry >>> LR Chandler >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 19, 2016 2:43 AM >>> *To:* fis <fis@listas.unizar.es> >>> *Subject:* [Fis] _ Re: Cho 2016 The social life of quarks >>> >>> Koichiro, Bob U., Pedro: >>> >>> Recent posts here illustrate the fundamental discord between modes of >>> human communication. Pedro's last post neatly addresses the immediate >>> issue. >>> >>> But, the basic issue goes far, far deeper. >>> >>> The challenge of communicating our meanings is not restricted to just >>> scientific meaning vs. historical meaning. Nor, communication between >>> the general community and, say, the music (operatic and ballad) >>> communities. >>> >>> Nor, is it merely a matter of definition of terms and re-defining >>> terms as "metaphor"in another discipline. >>> >>> Pedro's post aims toward the deeper issues, issues that are fairly >>> known and understood in the symbolic logic and chemical communities. >>> In the chemical community, the understanding is at the level of >>> intuition because ordinary usage within the discipline requires an >>> intuitive understanding of the way symbolic usage manifests itself in >>> different disciplines. >>> >>> (For a detailed description of these issues, see, The Primary Logic, >>> Instruments for a dialogue between the two Cultures. M. Malatesta, >>> Gracewings, Fowler Wright Books, 1997.) >>> >>> The Polish Logician, A. Tarski, recognized the separation of meanings >>> and definitions requires the usage of METALANGUAGES. For example, >>> ordinary public language is necessary for expression of meaning of >>> mathematical symbolic logic. But, from the basic mathematical >>> language, once it grounded in ordinary grammar, develops new set of >>> symbols and new meanings for relations among mathematical symbols. >>> Consequently, mathematicians re-define a long index of terms that are >>> have different meanings in its technical language. >>> >>> The meaning of mathematical terms is developed from an associative >>> logic that is foreign to ordinary language. From these antecedents, >>> the consequences are abundantly clear. The communication between the >>> meta-languages fail. The mathematicians have added vast symbolic >>> logical structures to their symbolic communication with symbols. In >>> other words, the ordinary historian and scientist are not able to >>> grasp the distinctive meanings of mathematical information. >>> >>> Physical information is restricted to physical units of measure and >>> hence constrained to borrowing mathematical symbols and relating to >>> the ordinary language as its meta-language. >>> >>> The perplexity of chemical information theory is such that it is not >>> understandable in any one meta-language or any pair of meta-languages. >>> In order for symbolic chemical communication to occur, the language >>> must go far beyond such simplistic notions of a primary interaction >>> among forces, such as centripetal orbits or even the four basic forces. >>> >>> The early metalanguage of chemistry was merely terms within ordinary >>> language, such as the names of elements. Or, the common names for oils >>> from various sources. Around the turn of the 19 th Century, the >>> metalanguage of chemistry started it century-long journey to become a >>> meta-language of mathematics with the development of the concepts of >>> atomic weights for each singular elements and molecular weight, and >>> molecular formula for each different molecule. >>> >>> The critical distinction that separates the meta-language of chemistry >>> from other metalanguages is the absolute requirement for specification >>> of the name of any object on the basis of it's distinction from other >>> signs or collections of signs. >>> >>> Thus, chemical information theory, in terms of metalanguages, requires >>> the exact usage of the meta-languages of both physics and mathematics >>> in order to define the origin of its symbolic logic, as well as the >>> natural metalanguage of ordinary human communication. >>> >>> Biological information theory is grounded on chemical information >>> theory, using a particular encoding of meaning within dynamical >>> systems, to communicate among the 5 essential metalanguages necessary >>> for the practice of the medical arts. And, I might add, for human >>> history. >>> >>> The failure of luke-warm physics to serve as a foundation for a >>> generalized information theory is the lack of terminology that can be >>> used to communicate among the symbolic logics used in more advanced >>> modes of human communication. >>> >>> In summary, in the 21 st Century, the foundation of human symbolic >>> communication requires multiple metalanguages and symbol systems, >>> that is, a generalized information theory. Such a generalized theory >>> of information must necessarily include the symbolic logic of >>> chemistry, which is essential to span the symbolic gaps between the >>> disciplines. >>> >>> (For those of you who are familiar with my background, this email >>> illuminates some of the reasoning behind the development of the >>> perplex number system and perplex systems theory within the >>> associative symbolic logic of graph theory.) >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> *From: *"Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es >>> <mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es>> >>> >>> *Subject: Re: [Fis] Cho 2016 The social life of quarks* >>> >>> *Date: *January 18, 2016 at 5:50:40 AM CST >>> >>> *To: *'fis' <fis@listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es>> >>> >>> Dear Howard and colleagues, >>> >>> OK, you can say that quarks communicate, but immediately we need >>> to create another term for "real" communication. I mean, there are >>> quarks (fermions) and bosons (particle forces) everywhere: >>> planets, stars, galaxies, etc. Their multiple interactions >>> constitute most of the contents of physics. If you want to term >>> "communication" to some basic categories of physical interactions >>> based on force exchange --of some of the 4 fundamental forces, >>> whatever-- we run into difficulties to characterize the >>> communication that entails signals, agents and meanings, and >>> responses. That's the "real" communication we find after the >>> origins of that singular organization we call life --essential >>> then for the later emergence of superorganisms, peaking order, >>> memes, etc. You have oceans of interacting fermions and bosons >>> around, but the new communicating phenomenology is only found in >>> our minuscule planet. >>> >>> As an explanatory metaphor, it is not a good idea, almost wrong I >>> dare say. But as a free-wheeling, literary metaphor it belongs to >>> the author's choice. The problem is that both realms of >>> information, so to speak, have relatively overlapping components, >>> depending on the explanatory framework used (see the ongoing >>> exchanges by Stan, John, Terry, etc.) And that kind of apparent >>> homogenization blurs the effort to establish the distinctions and >>> advance in a unifying perspective (I think!!). In any case, it >>> deserves more discussion. In your Jan. 14th message you ad more >>> elements--I will think twice!. >>> >>> All the best--Pedro >>> >>> PS. Clarifying the two messages per week rule (responding to >>> offline quests): the two messages should be counted along the >>> "international business week": starting on Monday until the end of >>> Sunday, Greenwich Time. Thanks to all for respecting this >>> "boundary condition"! >>> >>> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------------------- >> Pedro C. Marijuán >> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group >> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud >> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) >> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X >> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain >> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) >> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es >> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ >> ------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Fis mailing list >> Fis@listas.unizar.es >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis@listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > _______________________________________________ > Fis mailing list > Fis@listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > -- Moisés André Nisenbaum Doutorando IBICT/UFRJ. Professor. Msc. Instituto Federal do Rio de Janeiro - IFRJ Campus Rio de Janeiro moises.nisenb...@ifrj.edu.br
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