your suggestion that life ceases when informational systems break down is  
intriguing and made me stop and think.  hard.
 
but i suspect it's the other way around.  when life ceases,  communications 
systems, informational systems, slowly break down.
 
some of the cells continue to function after death.  and almost  everything 
that happens within cells and between them is conversational,  
communicative, and informational.
 
but i suspect that this vast system of communication and information  
storage depends on life--whatever life is--to function.
 
in other words, life is an indispensable process built on informational  
systems, but beyond and above information.  as the taj mahal is above and  
beyond the bricks of which it's made.
 
with warmth and oomph--howard
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/15/2017 4:08:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
migod...@wanadoo.fr writes:

About the difference between death and life, it is possible to tell that  li
fe persists as long as the information which controls the regulations which 
 give resistance of the living system  to perturbations are efficient.  
Do you agree ? 
M. Godron 

Le 15/02/2017 à 01:04, _HowlBloom@aol.com_ (mailto:howlbl...@aol.com)  a 
écrit :



brilliant summation, Pedro.
 
we are missing the metaphors with which to explain the difference  between 
death and life or between smart communities like bacterial colonies  and 
consciousness.
 
in The God Problem: How A Godless Cosmos Creates, i tell the tale of  the 
origin of the term "emergent property."  But, alas, over 140  years after the 
concept's introduction, we still lack the tools that  would help us 
understand life and consciousness in scientific ways.
 
i suspect the key will come from adding to the bottom  up vocabulary  of 
reductionism by looking at top down  approaches.  and i suspect that certain 
emergent properties are  possibilities of the cosmos waiting for matter to 
find them.  very a la  wagner in his Arrival of the Fittest.
 
but if emergent properties exist in an implicit future, in possibility  
space, how did they get there?  a hint:  god is not the  answer.  god is a way 
of dodging the question.
 
i've hit all these issues in The God Problem.  and i ache for the  new 
metaphors.
 
with warmth and oomph--howard
----------
Howard Bloom
Howardbloom.net
author of : The  Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces 
of History  ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The 
Evolution of Mass  Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century  ("reassuring and 
 
sobering"-The New Yorker), The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of  
Capitalism ("Impressive, stimulating, and tremendously enjoyable."James  
Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic), The God Problem: How A  Godless 
Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara  Ehrenreich), 
How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“a monumental,epic,  glorious 
literary achievement.” Timothy Leary), and The Muhammad Code:   How a Desert 
Prophet Gave You ISIS, al Qaeda, and Boko Haram--or How  Muhammad Invented 
Jihad 
(“a terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on  Islam,” David Swindle, PJ 
Media).
Former Core Faculty Member, The  Graduate Institute; Former Visiting Scholar
—Graduate Psychology Department,  NewYork University
Founder: International PaleopsychologyProject; founder  and chair, Space 
Development Steering Committee; Founding Board Member: Epic  of Evolution 
Society; Founding Board Member, The Darwin Project; Board Of  Governors, 
National Space Society; Founder: The Big Bang Tango Media  Lab; member: New 
York 
Academy of Sciences, American Association for the  Advancement of Science, 
American Psychological Society, Academy of Political  Science, Human Behavior 
and Evolution Society, International Society for  Human Ethology,  Scientific 
Advisory Board Member, Lifeboat Foundation.   

 
In a message dated 2/13/2017 10:32:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
_pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es_ (mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es)   writes:

Dear Howard,

In any extent, your  beautiful questions are beyond my reach. I think that 
the physical  characterization of life cannot even provide a whim on your 
demands; but  something of the informational might provide some limited 
inroads:  prokaryots could not achieve any significant progress in 
morphological 
or  differentiation capabilities within their "colonies". Conversely,  
eukaryotes developed multicellularity due to their far higher information  
content 
(genome), their far improved signaling resources, their endless  energy 
supply in support of the general combinatoric problem-solving tools  
(mitochondria), and the incorporation of a new locus (cytoskeleton)  capable of 
feeling the force field and reacting to it. A chain of amazing  inventions is 
behind any of the existing branches of complex life... can  do they admit a 
general explanation, not just based on natural selection,  but on the improved 
evolvability that has been obtained by being able to  explore any 
molecular-recognition contraption (within partially collapsed  solution 
state-spaces, a 
la Wagner?). Otherwise we are lead to admit a  deep enigma, still 
uncharted, or to look for external "intelligence"  solutions outside the limits 
of 
current scientific paradigms.

What  is your own opinion??

Best wishes--Pedro

El  09/02/2017 a las 22:44, _HowlBloom@aol.com_ (mailto:howlbl...@aol.com)  
escribió:



fascinating thinking, pedro.
 
it triggers this:
 
 
The stages of development are far more than  real-world problem solvers.  
They set artificial  challenges, then achieve them.  Making a caterpillar  
that works is an  enormously complex  challenge.  Making a working butterfly 
is also  immensely more complex than any simple challenge mounted by the  
environment.  Changing from caterpillar to butterfly  in one lifetime is 
unachievable beyond all belief.   And these grotesquely artificial goals can’t 
be 
accounted for by  a simple goal of survival.  The goal, if anything,  seems 
to be to accomplish the ornate, the unnecessary, the flamboyant,  and the 
impossible.  How does a drive toward  impossible flamboyance get built into   
life?  How does  it get built  into the cosmos?
with warmth and oomph--howard
----------
Howard Bloom
Howardbloom.net
author of : The  Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces 
of History  ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The 
Evolution of Mass  Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century  ("reassuring and 
 
sobering"-The New Yorker), The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision  of 
Capitalism ("Impressive, stimulating, and tremendously  enjoyable."James 
Fallows, National Correspondent, The Atlantic), The God  Problem: How A Godless 
Cosmos Creates ("Bloom's argument will rock your  world." Barbara Ehrenreich), 
How I Accidentally Started the Sixties (“a  monumental,epic, glorious 
literary achievement.” Timothy Leary), and The  Muhammad Code:  How a Desert 
Prophet Gave You ISIS, al Qaeda, and  Boko Haram--or How Muhammad Invented 
Jihad 
(“a terrifying book…the best  book I’ve read on Islam,” David Swindle, PJ 
Media).
Former Core  Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Former Visiting Scholar
—Graduate  Psychology Department, NewYork University
Founder: International  PaleopsychologyProject; founder and chair, Space 
Development Steering  Committee; Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution 
Society; Founding  Board Member, The Darwin Project; Board Of Governors, 
National Space  Society; Founder: The Big Bang Tango Media Lab; member: New 
York  
Academy of Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of  Science, 
American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science,  Human Behavior 
and Evolution Society, International Society for Human  Ethology,  
Scientific Advisory Board Member, Lifeboat Foundation.  

 
In a message dated 2/9/2017 3:22:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
_pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es_ (mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es)  writes:

Dear Marcus and Colleagues,

Thanks  for your interest. The Chengdu's Conference represented for me an  
occasion to return to my beginnings, in the 80's, when I prepared a  PhD 
Thesis: "Natural Intelligence: On the evolution of biological  information 
processing". It was mostly following a top down approach.  But in some of the 
discussions outdoors of the conference (a  suggestion for the next one in 
Shanghai: plenary discussion sessions  should also be organized) I realized 
that 
biomolecular things have  changed quite a lot. One could go nowadays the 
other way around: from  the molecular-informational organization of cellular 
life, to  intelligence of the cell's behavior withing the environment. The 
life  cycle es essential. It provides the source of "meaning" (as I have  
often argued in discussions in the list) but it is also the reference  for 
"intelligence". Communicating with the environment and  self-producing by means 
of the environmental affordances have to be  smoothly organized so that the 
stages of the life cycle may be  advanced, and that the "problems" arising 
from the internal or the  external may be adequately solved. It means signal
ling and  self-modifying in front of the open-ended environmental problems,  
sensing and acting coherently... It strangely connects with the notion  of 
human "story" and the communication cycle in the humanities.  Relating 
intelligence to goal accomplishment or to an architecture of  goals as usually 
done 
in computational realms implies that the real  life course (or the 
surrogate) is reduced to a very narrow segment.  True intelligence evaporates. 
These were some of my brute  reflections that I have to keep musing around 
(I saw interesting  repercussions for cellular signaling "narratives" too). 
Maybe this is  also a good opportunity for other parties of that conference 
to  expostulate their own impressions --very exciting presentations both  
from Chinese and Western colleagues there.

Thanks  again,
--Pedro

El 08/02/2017 a las 14:14, Marcus Abundis  escribió:


> In next weeks some further discussion might be  started, but at the time 
being, the slot is empty (any  ideas?)<  


Hi Pedro,


For my part I would appreciate a chance to hear more about the  thoughts 
you have been developing (even if they are very rough) as  related to the talk 
you gave in China last summer.


Alternatively, further thoughts on Gordana's talk would be nice  to hear.


For both of these talks, you both shared your presentation  stack . . . but 
there was so much information in both of those  talks, it would be nice to 
have some of "unpacked."


Marcus



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-------------------------------------------------

Pedro C. Marijuán

Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud

Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)

Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0

50009 Zaragoza, Spain

Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)

_pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es_ (mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es) 

http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/

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-- 

-------------------------------------------------

Pedro C. Marijuán

Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud

Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)

Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0

50009 Zaragoza, Spain

Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)

_pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es_ (mailto:pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es) 

http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/

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----------
Howard Bloom
Howardbloom.net
author of : The  Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces 
of History  ("mesmerizing"-The Washington Post), Global Brain: The 
Evolution of Mass Mind  from the Big Bang to the 21st Century  ("reassuring and 
sobering"-The New  Yorker), The Genius of the Beast: A Radical Re-Vision of 
Capitalism  ("Impressive, stimulating, and tremendously enjoyable."James 
Fallows, National  Correspondent, The Atlantic), The God Problem: How A Godless 
Cosmos Creates  ("Bloom's argument will rock your world." Barbara Ehrenreich), 
How I  Accidentally Started the Sixties (“a monumental,epic, glorious 
literary  achievement.” Timothy Leary), and The Muhammad Code:  How a Desert  
Prophet Gave You ISIS, al Qaeda, and Boko Haram--or How Muhammad Invented  
Jihad 
(“a terrifying book…the best book I’ve read on Islam,” David Swindle, PJ  
Media).
Former Core Faculty Member, The Graduate Institute; Former Visiting  Scholar
—Graduate Psychology Department, NewYork University
Founder:  International PaleopsychologyProject; founder and chair, Space 
Development  Steering Committee; Founding Board Member: Epic of Evolution 
Society; Founding  Board Member, The Darwin Project; Board Of Governors, 
National Space Society;  Founder: The Big Bang Tango Media Lab; member: New 
York 
Academy of  Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, 
American  Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior 
and  Evolution Society, International Society for Human Ethology,  Scientific 
 Advisory Board Member, Lifeboat  Foundation.



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