Dear Arturo,

Math is indeed a language that CAN describe scientific issues, but it is
not the only one. And its ability to cuantify scientific issues do not
necesarily make it superior.
Math and natural language face the same formal and logical problems: they
cannot make staments about themselves without falling into contradictions
or paradoxes (as can be inferred from Gödel).
And your statement is certainly self-contradictory: if it is true then it
is contradicted by the form of its performance (semantics).

Best regards,
El sep 15, 2017 10:17 AM, "" <>

Dear FISers,
I'm sorry for bothering you,
but I start not to agree from the very first principles.

The only language able to describe and quantify scientific issues is
Without math, you do not have observables, and information is observable.
Therefore, information IS energy or matter, and can be examined through
entropies (such as., e.g., the Bekenstein-Hawking one).

And, please, colleagues, do not start to write that information is
subjective and it depends on the observer's mind. This issue has been
already tackled by the math of physics: science already predicts that
information can be "subjective", in the MATHEMATICAL frameworks of both
relativity and quantum dynamics' Copenhagen interpretation.
Therefore, the subjectivity of information is clearly framed in a TOTALLY
physical context of matter and energy.

Sorry for my polemic ideas, but, if you continue to define information on
the basis of qualitative (and not quantitative) science, information
becomes metaphysics, or sociology, or psychology (i.e., branches with
doubtful possibility of achieving knowledge, due to their current lack of

*Arturo Tozzi*

AA Professor Physics, University North Texas

Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy

Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba

----Messaggio originale----
Da: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <>
Data: 15/09/2017 14.13
A: "fis"<>

Dear FIS Colleagues,

As promised herewith the "10 principles of information science". A couple
of previous comments may be in order.
First, what is in general the role of principles in science? I was
motivated by the unfinished work of philosopher Ortega y Gasset, "The idea
of principle in Leibniz and the evolution of deductive theory"
(posthumously published in 1958). Our tentative information science seems
to be very different from other sciences, rather multifarious in appearance
and concepts, and cavalierly moving from scale to scale. What could be the
specific role of principles herein? Rather than opening homogeneous realms
for conceptual development, these information principles would appear as a
sort of "portals" that connect with essential topics of other disciplines
in the different organization layers, but at the same time they should try
to be consistent with each other and provide a coherent vision of the
information world.
And second, about organizing the present discussion, I bet I was too
optimistic with the commentators scheme. In any case, for having a first
glance on the whole scheme, the opinions of philosophers would be very
interesting. In order to warm up the discussion, may I ask John Collier,
Joseph Brenner and Rafael Capurro to send some initial comments /
criticisms? Later on, if the commentators idea flies, Koichiro Matsuno and
Wolfgang Hofkirchner would be very valuable voices to put a perspectival
end to this info principles discussion (both attended the Madrid bygone FIS
1994 conference)...
But this is FIS list, unpredictable in between the frozen states and the
chaotic states! So, everybody is invited to get ahead at his own, with the
only customary limitation of two messages per week.

Best wishes, have a good weekend --Pedro


1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.

2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or

3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be  processed
(either computationally or non-computationally).

4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying
energy flows.

5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie
the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.

6. It is symbolic language what conveys the essential communication
exchanges of the human species--and constitutes the core of its "social

7. Human information may be systematically converted into efficient
knowledge, by following the "knowledge instinct" and further up by applying
rigorous methodologies.

8. Human cognitive limitations on knowledge accumulation are partially
overcome via the social organization of "knowledge ecologies."

9. Knowledge circulates and recombines socially, in a continuous
actualization that involves "creative destruction" of fields and
disciplines: the intellectual *Ars Magna.*

10. Information science proposes a new, radical vision on the information
and knowledge flows that support individual lives, with profound
consequences for scientific-philosophical practice and for social

Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta 0
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (&

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