Well, some of each of our last 2 postings have had elements of off-topic and I'm willing to stop it also; but it was and is something I'm researching as far as, as you say "my competetive plug in" problems (which is not the case here at all and I'll either end this or make sure it's on topic by saying exactly why).
What you don't know is the confidential documents I've seen as part of a case I'm involved with; which I cannot divulge the contents of; nor of the 6 years of research I've done and have found _public_ documents showing that, despite your reasoning about "evil" this or that (which is true sometimes I can agree in general), this is _Not_ the case with Microsoft -- not by any means and I've seen actual things inside to prove it; even if you've seen things; trust me; I've seen enough to get nauseated, even about me personally.
Trust me -- there is EVERY reason in the world for the Flex group and Macromedia to stay highly tuned to Microsoft's actions regarding, most especially Flash Player 8 and thereafter.
I've noticed how the first defense to real problems is sometimes noting what can and indeed goes on in a competetive environment -- but that is not at all what I'm referring to in the exactly related hacking of JVM in IE (proven explicitly not even with more likely than not; but beyond doubt; it was there and MS finally admitted it implicitly to SUN), QuickTime for Apple -- Flash Player, now especially 8 with video, is directly in line more than _ANY_ other technology right now as potential game for MS people who may or may have not changed -- and they have proven that they do not change.
Rich Client UI as well as Media Player Video ARE AT HIGH STAKE WITH MS AS WE SPEAK (and note Real Player's victory on this anti-trust front).
We'll see; but in the meantime; please Macromedia; keep it going and watch them. Period.
-r
Dave Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This thread is getting off-topic and I probobly shouldn't keep it
alive, but I did want to make one short comment. First off I clearly
a *former* employee and I can only comment on what I saw when I was
there, but many of the things that from the outside look like very
well planned very well executed "evil" moves are usually absolutely
accidents. Issues on things like "My competitive plugin stopped
working in the new browser, they did this on purpose to keep me down"
are usually more of an issue that I sometimes felt like buildings on
Microsoft Drive had no windows (pardon the pun). Its not that the
purposely would do something to break a competitors product, or
browser, or web site or whatever. Its usually more that they don't
naturally.... How do I say..... Like they are so internalized they
actually didnt even think about the impact the change they just did
would have. As you said, at that level where these things get built,
they're just geeks like you and me.
Anyways, just my opinion. Don't get me wrong, they a
hyper-competitive and they play to win. I am not an apologist for
many of their practices, nor usually are they. I just wanted a bit of
a view from the inside. At least as I experienced it.
That said, I wouldn't ever relax. They execute on a goal like machines.
I don't miss the Redmond weather this time of year though <wink>.
I have some fun stories over beers! Let's do that sometime.
--
Dave Wolf
Cynergy Systems, Inc.
Macromedia Flex Alliance Partner
http://www.cynergysystems.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Office: 866-CYNERGY
--- In [email protected], Robert Thompson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Nice to hear your comments; after all, the employees
> there are just people too; but it's the influence of a
> culture started long ago (billg: "I think Jobs needs
> to learn to program" -- and this coming from a Basic
> programmer /:-\
>
> I'm not unaware at all that there are those from ms
> that read these forums; nothing I say I'm afraid of
> nor is it extreme. I'm keenly aware of their activity
> moreso than I used to be.
>
> Although I appreciate your candore, I'm not sure you
> are addressing the concern here for Flex in FP8 and
> 8.5 (I've seen some new problems popup just since FP8;
> and am looking into this)..here's the end all:
>
> 1. Sun's JVM licensed by MS was hacked by them to
> perform poorly. Sun proved this.
>
> 2. Microsoft took specific anti-competitive steps to
> make Apple's QuickTime perform poorly; this also has
> been proven and has been argued.
>
> 3. Rick Segal, not someone I take kindly to by any
> means at this point now, and someone who (well you can
> do your own research), actually argues against
> Microsoft on the Blue Mountain v Microsoft hack issue;
> this suggests an unstable wavering by Rick; he's
> hasn't been sure at times where to draw the line of
> speaking the truth.
>
> 4. There's a host of other examples all leading to one
> thing: FLASH has been "something to deal with" and
> this WILL BE MORE OF AN ISSUE WITH AVALON.
>
> So I appreciate your comments and you seem cool and
> neutral; but I was simply addressing that the threat
> of potential "backdoor" type botching by MS to crush
> true innovation (yeah I know it's a highly used phrase
> but it's true).
>
> I really think there is a serious need for someone to
> monitor this actively as Avalon reaches release.
>
> I welcome anyone from ms to debate; and any future
> reference to any public stmts of mine is welcomed as
> they are directly associated with other events I'd
> gladly discuss in that context. I won't go away;
> sometimes it's best not too know too much in this
> world; but now I do and it's not conspiracy theory
> (the big denial defense to some), but it is a
> consistent philosophy that's just, well, I'd say it's
> essentially almost a loser mentality, rather than the
> true transparent competitor who can debate, think, and
> not lose their cool and digress into becoming a
> sneak...that's not competition; that's a mal-formed
> desperation with a self-image that's false.
>
> -r
>
>
>
> --- Dave Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I am a former lead Product Manager from the .NET
> > servers team at
> > Microsoft. I think I have a pretty good perspective
> > here <smile>
> >
> > They have a saying in Redmond.
> >
> > "Its better to chase tail lights then blaze head
> > lights"
> >
> > In other words, let everyone else go establish the
> > market, let
> > everyone else mkae mistakes, then swoop in builing
> > the better
> > mousetrap and take the market away.
> >
> > I can also pretty much guarantee they read these
> > forums. We used to
> > send half a dozen people to JavaOne.
> >
> > They wont lie down, but they also don't always come
> > in with that tail
> > light strategy and win. They often don't actually.
> >
> > In the end, choose the right technology today for
> > your business. You
> > can never predict the future.
> >
> > <I have all kinds of fun MSFT sayings if you're ever
> > bored>
> >
> > --
> > Dave Wolf
> > Cynergy Systems, Inc.
> > Macromedia Flex Alliance Partner
> > http://www.cynergysystems.com
> >
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Office: 866-CYNERGY
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], Robert Thompson
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > That's cool, but believe me, I've seen things that
> > one
> > > should not see from actual Microsoft documents.
> > >
> > > Flash is here to stay, but I believe a battle will
> > > ensue in the next year or so and it will be
> > > "diversionary" as is always the case with ms.
> > >
> > > They are smart people but apply less of their
> > smarts
> > > to products, and more of it to very diversionary
> > ways
> > > to offset who might be to blame.
> > >
> > > Take the Java JVM, they licensed it, gave a
> > diplomatic
> > > outward idea of supporting it, and it was found
> > during
> > > trial that they purposely hacked it to perform
> > poorly.
> > >
> > > They will _not_ I believe do this in IE7 -- but I
> > _do_
> > > believe it's entirely possible for them to use
> > > co-branded browsers of theirs to "accidently
> > > purposely" pass off bad code to other markets.
> > >
> > > It always takes a offensive position with people
> > like
> > > this; they live by a different philosophy and are
> > very
> > > persistent and clever in diversionary tactics of
> > > long-term competition; patient also.
> > >
> > > Avalon is good; good for Windows. But the essence
> > of
> > > Flash is great performance on multiple platforms,
> > and
> > > it will take good graphics engines in OSX and
> > Linux
> > > and Flash support of them to keep competetive.
> > >
> > > Remember, unfortunately IE and Windows still
> > dominate.
> > >
> > > What I've found is MS competes nominally when on a
> > > level playing field; they are the typical "Born on
> > 3rd
> > > Base and wake up thinking they hit a triple play"
> > > people.
> > >
> > > All I'm saying is this; I'm on Macromedias side;
> > I'm
> > > not looking for the destruction of MS, but I am
> > very
> > > aware of what they are, who they are (they are
> > what
> > > they do and they can never escape that), and the
> > fact
> > > that I believe those high up such as billg and
> > mulglia
> > > and alchin etc. and even
> > whats-his-shiny-head-name,
> > > they believe it's perfectly fine in their hearts
> > to
> > > compete like they do -- Please just keep an eye on
> > > them Macromedia. I realize there's a need to
> > > cooperate -- but look them in the eye
> > diplomatically
> > > but fully realize there are documents that show
> > what
> > > kind of people they are and they cannot be trusted
> > > unfortunately until they have a long term proof of
> > it.
> > >
> > > -r
> > >
> > > --- Aldo Bucchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > ...I strongly
> > > > > believe with the coming of Avalon, and the
> > > > dramatic
> > > > > milestone in Video Flash Player 8 has made,
> > that
> > > > we
> > > > > will see the opportunistic activities to try
> > to
> > > > harm
> > > > > flash player...
> > > >
> > > > Yeah... it sometimes scares me to think that MS
> > > > could do something to harm FP.
> > > > But then, the only thing they really "could" do
> > is
> > > > to completely cut
> > > > support for the player in the newer versions of
> > > > their browser / OS /
> > > > or whatever ( I can't think of a smaller/simpler
> > > > boycott ).
> > > > BUT, since Flash content is so prevalent on the
> > net,
> > > > they would be
> > > > risking a major flee from IE to Firefox or any
> > > > other! What do you
> > > > think my little brother would do if he finds
> > that
> > > > the new version of
> > > > IE doesn't allow him to play his favorite flash
> > game
> > > > on the web....
> > > > or my mom sees a zillion blank squares where
> > flash
> > > > ads were supposed
> > > > to go.
> > > >
> > > > and then I feel safe: flash is here to stay!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 11/3/05, Robert Thompson
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > This is a good argument Dave.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree AJAX is good in it's data retrieval;
> > but
> > > > my
> > > > > experiences thus far is that it is a "hack"
> > more
> > > > than
> > > > > anything. If you have any good url examples
> > maybe
> > > > > I'll reconsider this.
> > > > >
> > > > > To me, Search Engine Indexing is an issue here
> > > > also;
> > > > > that may not be important for Corprate
> > Intra-net,
> > > > but
> > > > > for the Cinematic eCommerce "experience" as
> > you
> > > > call
> > > > > it (and I agree) with the local data that can
> > be
> > > > > managed in an actual data-management paradigm
> > > > (again
> > > > > versus a hack) it is a huge selling factor.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a method of indexing to Google until
> > there
> > > > is
> > > > > full Search Engine compliance and protocol
> > with
> > > > Flash.
> > > > >
> > > > > My main argument actually in all of this, is I
> > > > just
> > > > > know, and again, mark my words, that MS will
> > > > attempt
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
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