One extra comment that I think Dave is trying to get across - MSFT goes it's
own way most of the time - till it seas the real threat to their products.
They can have superior products built in "catch up" process. Do not
underestimate their ability to quickly build competitive products or even
superior ones - given permission from the management.
As an example in Flash category they had IE 5.5/6 since 2000 - very
capable platform with integrated XMLParser/HTTPRequests/WebServices, custom
tags with multiple inheritance (DHTML behaviors - superior to any XML tags
at this point in any respect but performance), ability to integrate compiled
JavaScript or any other scripting languages - in short much more then needed
for regular Flex application.
They did not see competition or money in that market and they basically
advised people not to use it by removing documentation/libraries/materials.
They moved all remaining developers of the original team to Avalon and such
till Firefox came out. Even at that time they were not going to make
superior product but were going for "biggest bang for a buck" to give them
comparable functionality to Firefox. The people at MSFT do not see Firefox
as a threat - and rather would play with their own toys like Avalon they
have been erfecting for number of years now. They know that they can build
superior Internet product by just integrating their existing technologies -
but naturally have as much desire of getting into 6 years old codebase as
anyone would.
Flash/Flex would not have such easy time as Firefox. It is new
Platform - goes right in the heart of Microsoft business . It makes easy to
create very interactive collaboration corporate products - actually
Macromedia should start making small promotions like "copy of Flex to the
best open source Excel written in Flex/Flash". And Macromedia needs to move
very fast - getting the best resources not taken by Google and Microsoft in
order to deliver much more robust product.
It is doable. Powersoft was successful on fighting VB for 6 years - with
Microsoft using it over VB for internal systems. Macromedia needs superior
product and better marketing program - and a LOT OF 3RD PARTY SUPPORT to
sell high-end products. They have time advantage that was built over years
and will not last to long - I do not think we have more then a year to make
it widespread.
I wonder how many people in here would like to be interested in 3rd
party product similar to MyEclipse (MyFlex?) - essentially set of objects
and tools that automate development of Flex application by the means of code
generators and pre-made objects. Huge areas like form creations/management,
reporting, SQL generation/mapping, etc need to be streamlined as the product
goes from early adopters to corporate mainstream. I would gladly be a part
of such project and contribute the products I developed in the last few
years and I am sure most of the people in the community have piles of stuff
that begs to be reused.
That can accelerate adoption and give Macromedia much needed support in
the unavoidable clash.
Thank you,
Anatole Tartakovsky
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex2: pricing info
> Nice to hear your comments; after all, the employees
> there are just people too; but it's the influence of a
> culture started long ago (billg: "I think Jobs needs
> to learn to program" -- and this coming from a Basic
> programmer /:-\
>
> I'm not unaware at all that there are those from ms
> that read these forums; nothing I say I'm afraid of
> nor is it extreme. I'm keenly aware of their activity
> moreso than I used to be.
>
> Although I appreciate your candore, I'm not sure you
> are addressing the concern here for Flex in FP8 and
> 8.5 (I've seen some new problems popup just since FP8;
> and am looking into this)..here's the end all:
>
> 1. Sun's JVM licensed by MS was hacked by them to
> perform poorly. Sun proved this.
>
> 2. Microsoft took specific anti-competitive steps to
> make Apple's QuickTime perform poorly; this also has
> been proven and has been argued.
>
> 3. Rick Segal, not someone I take kindly to by any
> means at this point now, and someone who (well you can
> do your own research), actually argues against
> Microsoft on the Blue Mountain v Microsoft hack issue;
> this suggests an unstable wavering by Rick; he's
> hasn't been sure at times where to draw the line of
> speaking the truth.
>
> 4. There's a host of other examples all leading to one
> thing: FLASH has been "something to deal with" and
> this WILL BE MORE OF AN ISSUE WITH AVALON.
>
> So I appreciate your comments and you seem cool and
> neutral; but I was simply addressing that the threat
> of potential "backdoor" type botching by MS to crush
> true innovation (yeah I know it's a highly used phrase
> but it's true).
>
> I really think there is a serious need for someone to
> monitor this actively as Avalon reaches release.
>
> I welcome anyone from ms to debate; and any future
> reference to any public stmts of mine is welcomed as
> they are directly associated with other events I'd
> gladly discuss in that context. I won't go away;
> sometimes it's best not too know too much in this
> world; but now I do and it's not conspiracy theory
> (the big denial defense to some), but it is a
> consistent philosophy that's just, well, I'd say it's
> essentially almost a loser mentality, rather than the
> true transparent competitor who can debate, think, and
> not lose their cool and digress into becoming a
> sneak...that's not competition; that's a mal-formed
> desperation with a self-image that's false.
>
> -r
>
>
>
> --- Dave Wolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I am a former lead Product Manager from the .NET
>> servers team at
>> Microsoft. I think I have a pretty good perspective
>> here <smile>
>>
>> They have a saying in Redmond.
>>
>> "Its better to chase tail lights then blaze head
>> lights"
>>
>> In other words, let everyone else go establish the
>> market, let
>> everyone else mkae mistakes, then swoop in builing
>> the better
>> mousetrap and take the market away.
>>
>> I can also pretty much guarantee they read these
>> forums. We used to
>> send half a dozen people to JavaOne.
>>
>> They wont lie down, but they also don't always come
>> in with that tail
>> light strategy and win. They often don't actually.
>>
>> In the end, choose the right technology today for
>> your business. You
>> can never predict the future.
>>
>> <I have all kinds of fun MSFT sayings if you're ever
>> bored>
>>
>> --
>> Dave Wolf
>> Cynergy Systems, Inc.
>> Macromedia Flex Alliance Partner
>> http://www.cynergysystems.com
>>
>> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Office: 866-CYNERGY
>>
>>
>> --- In [email protected], Robert Thompson
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> > That's cool, but believe me, I've seen things that
>> one
>> > should not see from actual Microsoft documents.
>> >
>> > Flash is here to stay, but I believe a battle will
>> > ensue in the next year or so and it will be
>> > "diversionary" as is always the case with ms.
>> >
>> > They are smart people but apply less of their
>> smarts
>> > to products, and more of it to very diversionary
>> ways
>> > to offset who might be to blame.
>> >
>> > Take the Java JVM, they licensed it, gave a
>> diplomatic
>> > outward idea of supporting it, and it was found
>> during
>> > trial that they purposely hacked it to perform
>> poorly.
>> >
>> > They will _not_ I believe do this in IE7 -- but I
>> _do_
>> > believe it's entirely possible for them to use
>> > co-branded browsers of theirs to "accidently
>> > purposely" pass off bad code to other markets.
>> >
>> > It always takes a offensive position with people
>> like
>> > this; they live by a different philosophy and are
>> very
>> > persistent and clever in diversionary tactics of
>> > long-term competition; patient also.
>> >
>> > Avalon is good; good for Windows. But the essence
>> of
>> > Flash is great performance on multiple platforms,
>> and
>> > it will take good graphics engines in OSX and
>> Linux
>> > and Flash support of them to keep competetive.
>> >
>> > Remember, unfortunately IE and Windows still
>> dominate.
>> >
>> > What I've found is MS competes nominally when on a
>> > level playing field; they are the typical "Born on
>> 3rd
>> > Base and wake up thinking they hit a triple play"
>> > people.
>> >
>> > All I'm saying is this; I'm on Macromedias side;
>> I'm
>> > not looking for the destruction of MS, but I am
>> very
>> > aware of what they are, who they are (they are
>> what
>> > they do and they can never escape that), and the
>> fact
>> > that I believe those high up such as billg and
>> mulglia
>> > and alchin etc. and even
>> whats-his-shiny-head-name,
>> > they believe it's perfectly fine in their hearts
>> to
>> > compete like they do -- Please just keep an eye on
>> > them Macromedia. I realize there's a need to
>> > cooperate -- but look them in the eye
>> diplomatically
>> > but fully realize there are documents that show
>> what
>> > kind of people they are and they cannot be trusted
>> > unfortunately until they have a long term proof of
>> it.
>> >
>> > -r
>> >
>> > --- Aldo Bucchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > ...I strongly
>> > > > believe with the coming of Avalon, and the
>> > > dramatic
>> > > > milestone in Video Flash Player 8 has made,
>> that
>> > > we
>> > > > will see the opportunistic activities to try
>> to
>> > > harm
>> > > > flash player...
>> > >
>> > > Yeah... it sometimes scares me to think that MS
>> > > could do something to harm FP.
>> > > But then, the only thing they really "could" do
>> is
>> > > to completely cut
>> > > support for the player in the newer versions of
>> > > their browser / OS /
>> > > or whatever ( I can't think of a smaller/simpler
>> > > boycott ).
>> > > BUT, since Flash content is so prevalent on the
>> net,
>> > > they would be
>> > > risking a major flee from IE to Firefox or any
>> > > other! What do you
>> > > think my little brother would do if he finds
>> that
>> > > the new version of
>> > > IE doesn't allow him to play his favorite flash
>> game
>> > > on the web....
>> > > or my mom sees a zillion blank squares where
>> flash
>> > > ads were supposed
>> > > to go.
>> > >
>> > > and then I feel safe: flash is here to stay!
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 11/3/05, Robert Thompson
>> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > > > This is a good argument Dave.
>> > > >
>> > > > I agree AJAX is good in it's data retrieval;
>> but
>> > > my
>> > > > experiences thus far is that it is a "hack"
>> more
>> > > than
>> > > > anything. If you have any good url examples
>> maybe
>> > > > I'll reconsider this.
>> > > >
>> > > > To me, Search Engine Indexing is an issue here
>> > > also;
>> > > > that may not be important for Corprate
>> Intra-net,
>> > > but
>> > > > for the Cinematic eCommerce "experience" as
>> you
>> > > call
>> > > > it (and I agree) with the local data that can
>> be
>> > > > managed in an actual data-management paradigm
>> > > (again
>> > > > versus a hack) it is a huge selling factor.
>> > > >
>> > > > I have a method of indexing to Google until
>> there
>> > > is
>> > > > full Search Engine compliance and protocol
>> with
>> > > Flash.
>> > > >
>> > > > My main argument actually in all of this, is I
>> > > just
>> > > > know, and again, mark my words, that MS will
>> > > attempt
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
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