Gabriel L Romeu wrote:
> Andreas Borutta wrote:

>> For me the word "basteln" has the connotation "follow an instruction".
>>
>> It sounds like reproducing things without own thoughts, investigation
>> and accumulation of knowledge.
>> May be I am strongly influenced by all these boring and stupid
>> instructions one could find in magazines called "do it yourself".
>> Or in Christmas time these "bastel"pages in many magazines.
>>
>> Frankly speaking I hate them, because they do not teach anything.
>> They are the dead of creativity.

> but many times these things require knowledge of materials and tools in
> order to produce the object.

Exactly. So the natural first step (of course IMHO) is to teach basic
knowledge.
In a very impressive interview, I remember, a carver of puppets [1] in
a "Volkshochschule" (adult education program) was asked which was the
most important thing when beginning to learn carving. "Sharpening" she
said.

To be not misunderstood:
It is obvious that an amateur has less time to spent in an occupation
then a proffessional of course.
So a point of view could be: less time means to be extraordinary
carefully how to use this time.
To exaggerate it:
A Use the time to build many things with step by step instructions.
B Use the time to learn and understand _some_ basic skills and build a
few things which include some of your own ideas.

I am far away from forming an ideology of this :-)

I only postulate that B is more often (for myself ever) satisfactory
than A on the long run.

> BTW, is there any such thing as a pure 'creativity' out there? 

No.
Nothing is pure in the sense of being independent.
I agree with you that we are "standing on shoulders" as you point out
later.

> Everything that we make has to follow some rules- a dining table has to
> be a certain height to fit with a chair, needs to accomplish a certain
> amount of seating, have a certain 'look' to fit into an environment.  Is
> this any more than following the do-it-yourself magazine article?

:-) Depends on ... the quality of the magazine. In my experience the
majority of do-it-yourself-articles are quite narrow in their view.
Of course an article is not a textbook.

Well it is difficult to argue without concrete examples.
At the end my arguments are highly subjective.

> When you build a kayak, is there a truly creative approach to
> speed/length, rocker/turning, etc.?

I am not competent in boat design. And as long as I doesn't have a
good basic knowledge in this shere my personal decision is not to
begin such a project. Because for me it is not satisfactory enough
just to follow instructions. The industrie or a proffessional will
perform a much better result.
May be the only reason to build such a project on my own is when there
is definetly no chance to find this product on the market or to let it
build is to expensive for me.
Then it's plain work not a satisfactory work.

> We question the notion of creativity in contemporary dialogue, as we see
> most of what we do as a result of 'standing on the shoulders of giants',

ACK

> even to those making things from the do it yourself xmas magazines. 

ACK. May be, to use an oxymoron, we call them small giants. :-)

An other aspect is the strong "bondage to experts" in our time.
In other words: "better listen to and trust on an expert than make
your own experience". Even in things which are simple to reveal
without a particle accelerator.

>> So I prefer simple phrasings like "to build something".
>
> And when asked, I say I 'make stuff' which is just about the same.

Nice phrasing.

>> In my opinion you do not need two words for activies - one for "done
>> by proffessionals", who make a living with it, and another for "done
>> by non-proffessional".
>> The only point to distinguish, is the know-how (of head and hand) and
>> the passion.
>
> And yet, in my experience, craftsperson is quite a good term.

ACK

> James originally came from [...]

Thanks for this information.

> Andrea, I am not trying to be argumentative,

I know :-)

> but I think that we should hesitate to disparage anybody
> who is willing to make stuff from anything

I agree.

> It was a
> phenomenal lesson in working marine ply and bent wood lamination- some
> of this ended up in my furniture.

It is wonderful when you enjoyed it.
So soon you will produce your own superslim bent ribs for your
foldingboat? :-)
Or a complete foldingboat frame bent and knoted forming a sculpture
(just for your friends) showing what the elemental force of wild water
may do with a frame kayak.

> To many out there are perfectly willing to burn hydrocarbons

:-) You are working with bated breath?

> Here in the schools they have eliminated the art and shop classes, the
> only hand-eye things being chemistry lab work.  A very sad state of
> affairs.

Art classes we have, shop classes we haven't either.
Exception: Rudolf Steiner schools.

> Germany historically has a great reputation of an apprenticeship
> program, especially in precision work.

I do not feel competent to compare it.

But I know the most inspiring texts to woodworking I ever read they
all come from americans or, to be more precise, from people who are
living in the USA.
And for not a little while it was one of my dreams to get in an
old-fashioned master/ student (or which word do you use in this
context) relationship with one of them.

Also extraordinary well made textbooks I found like e. g. 
Bruce Hoadley. Understanding wood.Taunton Press.
Tage Frid. Tage Frid teaches woodworking. Taunton Press.
Leonard Lee. The complete guide to sharpening. Taunton Press.

> I also wish I could write in German to respond as well as you all are
> doing in English- I have great admiration for you'all.

Thank you for your compliment.
But I have great admiration for all of you who endure my English.

Greetings from Berlin,
Andreas

[1] "Jim Knopf and Lukas the engine driver"
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