Hi Cornelius There are lots of egregiously wrong things in the web design. Perhaps one of the simplest is that the browser folks have lacked the perspective to see that the browser is not like an application, but like an OS. i.e. what it really needs to do is to take in and run foreign code (including low level code) safely and coordinate outputs to the screen (Google is just starting to realize this with NaCl after much prodding and beating.)
I think everyone can see the implications of these two perspectives and what they enable or block Cheers, Alan ________________________________ From: Cornelius Toole <cornelius.to...@gmail.com> To: Fundamentals of New Computing <fonc@vpri.org> Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 7:16:20 AM Subject: Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models? Thanks Merik, I've read/watch the OOPSLA'97 keynote before, but hadn't seen the first video. I'm having problems with the first one(the talk at UIUC). Has anyone been able to watch past the first hour. I get up to the point where Alex speaks and it freezes. I've just recently read Roy Fielding's dissertation on the architecture of the Web. Two prominent features of web architecture are the (1) client-server hierarchical style and (2) the layering abstraction style. My take away from that is how all of abstraction layers of the web software stack get in the way of the applications that want to use the machine. Style 1 is counter to the notion of the 'no centers' principle and is very limiting when you consider different classes of applications that might involve many entities with ill-defined relationships. Style 2, provides for separation of concerns and supports integration with legacy systems, but incurs so much overhead in terms of structural complexity and performance. I think the stuff about web sockets and what was discussed in the Erlang interview that Micheal linked to in the 1st reply is relevant here. The web was designed for large grain interaction between entities, but many application domain problems don't map to that. Some people just want pipes or channels to exchange messages for fine-grained interactions, but the layer cake doesn't allow it. This is where you get the feeling that the architecture for rich web apps is no-architecture, just piling big stones atop one another. I think it would be very interesting for someone to take the same approach to networked-based application as Gezira did with graphics (or the STEP project in general) as far assessing what's needed in a modern Internet-scale hypermedia architecture. On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Merik Voswinkel <a...@knoware.nl> wrote: Dr Alan Kay addressed the html design a number of times in his lectures and keynotes. Here are two: > > >[1] Alan Kay, How Complex is "Personal Computing"?". Normal" Considered >Harmful. >October 22, 2009, Computer Science department at UIUC. > http://media.cs.uiuc.edu/seminars/StateFarm-Kay-2009-10-22b.asx > (also see http://www.smalltalk.org.br/movies/ ) > > >[2] Alan Kay, "The Computer Revolution Hasn't Happened Yet", October 7, 1997, >OOPSLA'97 Keynote. > Transcript >http://blog.moryton.net/2007/12/computer-revolution-hasnt-happened-yet.html > Video >http://ftp.squeak.org/Media/AlanKay/Alan%20Kay%20at%20OOPSLA%201997%20-%20The%20computer%20revolution%20hasnt%20happened%20yet.avi > > > (also see http://www.smalltalk.org.br/movies/ ) > >Merik > >On May 26, 2011, at 8:38 PM, Cornelius Toole wrote: > >All,A criticism by Dr. Kay, has really stuck with me. I can't remember the >specific criticism and where it's from, but I recall it being about the how >wrong the web programming model is. I imagine he was referring to how >disjointed, resource inefficient it is and how it only exposes a fraction of >the >power and capability inherent in the average personal computer. >> >> >>So Alan, anyone else, >>what's wrong with the web programming mode and application architecture? What >>programming model would work for a global-scale hypermedia system? What prior >>research or commercial systems have any of these properties? >> >> >>The web is about the closest we've seen to a ubiquitous deployment platform >>for >>software, but the confluence of market forces and technical realities >>endanger >>that ubiquity because users want full power of their devices plus the >>availability of Internet connectivity. >> >> >>-Cornelius >> >>-- >>cornelius toole, jr. | ctoo...@tigers.lsu.edu | mobile: 601.212.3045 >> >>_______________________________________________ >>fonc mailing list >>fonc@vpri.org >>http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >> > >_______________________________________________ >fonc mailing list >fonc@vpri.org >http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > > -- cornelius toole, jr. | ctoo...@tigers.lsu.edu | mobile: 601.212.3045
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