This message is from the T13 list server.
Document Number: T13/e02144r0
Date: 24 October 2002
Reply to: Pete McLean
To: Membership of T13
From: Curtis Stevens, Secretary of T13, and Pete McLean, Chairman of T13
Subject: Minutes of 37th T13 Plenary Meeting at Las Vegas, NV.
October 22 through 24, 2002
Agenda
1 Opening remarks 3
2 Approval of agenda 3
3 Membership and attendance 3
3.1 Membership 3
3.2 Fees 3
3.3 Attendance 4
4 Approval of the minutes from the previous T13 plenary meeting
(e02134r0) 4
5 Document distribution 4
6 Review of previous action items 5
7 Old business 5
7.1 ATA-3 (X3.298:1997) withdrawal status 5
7.2 ATA/ATAPI-6 project 1410D status (ANSI INCITS 361-2002) 5
7.3 EDD - 2 project 1484D status (ANSI INCITS 363-2002) 5
7.4 ATA/ATAPI Host Adapter Standard project 1510D 5
7.4.1 Draft review (d1510r0g) [Stevens] 5
7.5 ATA/ATAPI-7 project 1532D 6
7.5.1 Long logical sector size proposal (e02132r1) [Colegrove]
6
7.5.2 Device problem condition reporting (e02122r1) [Colegrove]
6
7.5.3 Burst length for CRC coverage (e02140r0) [McLean] 6
7.5.4 World Wide Name Definition (e02136r1) [Puri] 6
7.5.5 ID words for host sector times (e02027r1) [Puri] 7
7.5.6 WRITE WRONG (e02126r0) [Stevens] 7
7.5.7 Use of DSC with PACKET command (e02131r1) [Hatfield] 7
7.5.8 Time Limited Read/Write proposal (e02121r1) [Hatfield] 7
7.5.9 ATA/ATAPI-7 change bar review 7
7.5.10 ATA/ATAPI-7 schedule review 8
7.6 EDD-3 project 1572D [Stevens] 8
7.7 Serial ATA 8
7.8 IDEMA A/V working group [Shimizu] (e02139r1) 8
7.9 IDEMA A/V working group response to Seagate proposal (e02145r0) 8
7.10 T13 Reflector, FTP, and Web Site Setup 8
7.11 Open issues list 8
8 New Business 8
8.1 Project proposal for extended cable length technical report ( )
[Stevens] 8
8.2 Modifications to Signal integrity and UDMA implementation guide
annex (e02142r0) [McLean] 9
8.3 IDEMA discussion [Tom Coughlin] 9
8.4 ATA vs SAS naming 9
8.5 PARTIES 48 Bit issue [Salmon] 9
8.6 Short Cable Lengths [Barras] 9
8.7 Clarification of FLUSH CACHE and 48-bit feature-sets [Hatfield] 9
8.8 Identifying bad sectors [Roberts] 9
9 Liaison Reports 10
9.1 T10 10
9.2 SFF 10
9.3 IDEMA 10
9.4 Serial ATA II 10
10 Call for Patents 10
11 Open Issues List Summary 10
12 Review of Action Items 10
13 Meeting Schedule 10
13.1 Authorization of ad hoc working groups 10
13.2 Long term meeting schedule 11
14 Adjournment 11
Results of the Meeting
1 Opening remarks
Pete McLean, the T13 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 A.M. on
Tuesday, October 22, 2002. Pete thanked Sumit Puri and Fujitsu for hosting
the meeting.
As is customary, the people in attendance introduced themselves, and a copy
of the attendance list was circulated. Copies of the agenda were made
available to those in attendance.
The Chair briefly reviewed the meeting rules: T13 is a Technical Committee
of INCITS and operates under INCITS rules. Anyone with interest in the work
of the committee is free to attend and take part in discussions. However,
motions and votes are limited to member organizations, one vote per member
organization.
The Chair also noted that T13 operates under the ANSI antitrust guidelines.
There should never be discussion of the following topics at any INCITS or an
INCITS subgroup meeting:
* Any company's prices or pricing policies;
* Specific R&D, sales and marketing plans;
* Any company's confidential product, product development or
production strategies;
* Whether certain suppliers or customers will be served;
* Prices paid to input sources; or
* Complaints about individual firms or other actions that might tend
to hinder a competitor in any market.
Policies and Procedures and antitrust guidelines for INCITS are available at
the web site at www.incits.org. T13 operates under these policies and
procedures augmented by the T13 procedures at the T13 web site at
www.t13.org.
2 Approval of agenda
The agenda as reflected in these minutes was approved unanimously.
3 Membership and attendance
The Chair reviewed the rules for membership and attendance:
3.1 Membership
An individual from an organization new to T13 must attend at least one T13
plenary meeting before requesting voting membership. After that meeting,
the representative may request membership from the T13 chair stating
expertise and material interest in the scope of the committee and pay the
required fees to INCITS. Voting privileges begin upon receipt by the INCITS
Secretariat of applicable fees for the membership year.
3.2 Fees
Current INCITS memberships fees for Principal or additional Alternates are
800.00 USD. The First Alternate is free with a Principal membership.
Mailings of committee documents are available to any interested party after
each plenary meeting. The cost for mailings for one year is 300.00 USD for
mailing in the USA and 400.00 USD for mailing to a location outside of the
USA.
Persons with questions or requests regarding membership fees and/or
subscriptions for mailings should contact Ms. Monica Vago, Manager, ITI
Standards Operations, at 202-626-5739, send a fax to her at 202-638-4922, or
contact her by email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:mvago@;itic.org>
3.3 Attendance
In addition to payment of fees, there are also minimum attendance and
participation requirements to maintain voting membership status on T13. A
representative from a member organization must attend two of every three
plenary meetings and vote on at least every other letter ballot. If a
member organization fails to have a representative in attendance at two of
the last three T13 plenary meetings or vote on every other letter ballot,
they are warned that failing to attend the next T13 meeting or to vote on
the next letter ballot will result in their voting membership being
terminated.
Attendance at a working group meeting does not affect voting membership
status in T13.
Four voting members were in jeopardy due to lack of attendance: Adaptec,
Iomega, Phoenix, and Sandisk.
Representatives from Adaptec and Phoenix were present at this meeting.
Iomega and Sandisk lost their voting membership due to lack of attendance.
The T13 voting membership during the meeting was 20 organizations.
The number of eligible voting members required for establishing a quorum was
7. 17 member organizations were present at the meeting, thus a quorum was
present.
The following individuals were in attendance:
Phil Gardner Absolute Software Curtis Stevens Pacific Digital
Ron Roberts Adaptec Ryosuke Shimizu Panasonic
Larry Barras Apple Rom Salmon Phoenix Technology
Tom Coughlin Coughlin Associates Gary Laatsch Phoenix Technology
Sumit Puri Fujitsu Arie Krantz Qlogic
Andrew Vuong Hitachi Jim Hatfield Seagate Technologies
Dan Colegrove IBM Marc Noblitt Seagate Technologies
Michael Eschmann Intel Raymond Liu Silicon Image
Tim Thompson LSI Logic Shoji Fuchigami Sony
Mark Evans Maxtor Glenn Lott STMicroelectronics
Pete McLean Maxtor Tasuku Kasebayashi Toshiba
Bob Davis Network Appliance Hiroshi Suzuki Toshiba
Tony Goodfellow Pacific Digital Darrin Bulik Western Digital
4 Approval of the minutes from the previous T13 plenary meeting
(e02134r0)
The minutes from the previous meeting, e02134r0, were approved unanimously.
5 Document distribution
The following documents were distributed either via hard copy, soft copy, or
both:
Agenda and document directory
ATA/ATAPI-7 revision 1 (1532D)
E02140r0 Recommendation for Ultra DMA burst length
E02142r0 Modifications to Signal integrity and UDMA implementation annex
E02122r1 Device problem condition reporting proposal
E02132r1 Long logical sector size proposal
Document directory
Jim Hatfield asked for a column to be added to the document directory that
reflects the document disposition. Dan Colegrove agreed to add the column
as we move forward.
6 Review of previous action items
1. Jim Hatfield to provide a list of documents that define DSC
and SERV - to be covered under 7.5.6. Carry Over
2. Curtis Stevens to turn a new revision of 1510d - completed -
to be covered under 7.4.
3. Curtis Stevens to submit a project proposal for an extended
cable length technical report - to be covered under 8.1. Carry Over
4. Curtis Stevens to come forward with a proposal for WRITE
WRONG (e02126r0) - to be covered under 7.5.5. Carry Over.
5. Pete McLean to turn a new revision of ATA/ATAPI-7 -
completed - to be covered under 7.5.8.
6. Pete McLean create a document and start a reflector
conversation on CRC burst length - completed- to be covered under 7.5.3.
7. Sumit Puri to turn a new rev of World Wide Name Definition
e02136 - completed - to be covered under 7.5.4.
8. Dan Colegrove to turn a new revision of Device problem
condition reporting e02122 - completed - to be covered under 7.5.2.
9. Dan Colegrove to turn a new revision of Larger logical
sector size e02132 - completed - to be covered under 7.5.1.
10. Jim Hatfield to bring in information regarding the form
factor for their new 2.5" 15mm drive - completed.
11. Pete McLean to prepare response to presentation from IDEMA
Japan - completed - to be covered under 7.8.
7 Old business
7.1 ATA-3 (ANSI X3.298:1997) withdrawal status
The chair reported that ATA-3 was withdrawn by ANSI on August 28, 2002.
7.2 ATA/ATAPI-6 project 1410D status (ANSI INCITS 361-2002)
The chair reported that ATA/ATAPI-6 received final ANSI approval on
September 20, 2002. It has been published as ANSI INCITS 361-2002.
7.3 EDD - 2 project 1484D status (ANSI INCITS 363-2002)
The chair reported that EDD-2 received final ANSI approval on August 28,
2002. It has been published as ANSI INCITS 363-2002.
7.4 ATA/ATAPI Host Adapter Standard project 1510D
7.4.1 Draft review (d1510r0g) [Stevens]
Completed draft review. The editor was instructed to create revision 1
including the changes requested. Tony Goodfellow motioned and Ron Roberts
seconded that 1510d r1 be forwarded to INCITS for further processing. This
motion requires a letter ballot. There was significant discussion on the
rules regarding this letter ballot. Mike Eschmann expressed objections to
the project in general. Ron Roberts and Pete McLean both expressed that
this has been an open process and that other people/organizations are free
to bring in other project proposals. The chair was given an action item to
issue a letter ballot as soon as revision 1 was posted.
7.5 ATA/ATAPI-7 project 1532D
7.5.1 Long logical sector size proposal (e02132r1) [Colegrove]
Dan Colegrove reviewed the changes in this proposal. The major change to
this proposal is the addition of a feature set description. There was
discussion about representing the logical sector size as an encoded value
versus a set number of words as presented in the proposal. Bob Davis
brought up the topic of PCI Express as another activity that is encoding
sector sizes. The current proposal has a limit of 128k for the size of a
logical sector. The group agreed to allocate 32 bits just in case the
sector size grows too quickly. The upper 16 bits will be marked reserved
and an enable bit will be reserved for turning on the upper 16 bits.
There was discussion about enabling both 28 bit and 48 bit commands for this
proposal. Currently the 28 bit commands are not enabled. Curtis Stevens
and Mike Eschmann both asked that 28 bit read and write commands be added
back in. The issue is performance, 48 bit commands have overhead associated
with using them. Dan agreed to add back in the 48 bit read and write
commands.
Pete McLean asked that a statement be added to the description of the
feature set that describes the intention of both capabilities: multiple
physical sectors per logical sector, and logical sector sizes that are not
256 words.
Jim Hatfield asked why you could not go smaller than 256 words. The main
issue is that in previous versions of the proposal the drive defaulted to
256 words. Some people felt there could be issues if the sectors were made
smaller. The current proposal does not default to 256 byte sectors, so any
sector size could be supported. The group agreed to keep the greater than
256 byte limitation.
Dan Colegrove agreed to turn a new revision.
7.5.2 Device problem condition reporting (e02122r1) [Colegrove]
Dan Colegrove reviewed the changes from the last meeting. This capability
has no enable/disable capability.
Pete McLean asked that the proposal be modified so that if problem condition
reporting is enabled, but the conditioned could not be determined, that a
status be available for the device to return.
There was discussion on the difference between this capability and the
standard SMART capability. Many of the conditions specified in this
proposal are transitory and may eventually be resolved. The group asked for
a better description of what this is and how it relates to SMART.
Pete McLean moved and Darrin Bulik seconded that this proposal be excluded
from ATA/ATAPI-7. Mike Eschmann felt that this was a very short-sighted
position. Pete McLean was concerned that there were legal implications.
Mark Noblitt felt that turning on the alarm could create tech support issues
on returns. Motion passed 10-5-2. Curtis Stevens commented that this
proposal would allow end users to have be useful. Ron Salmon commented that
there was no other capability that provided this service. Larry Barras
commented that this needs some refinement.
7.5.3 Burst length for CRC coverage (e02140r0) [McLean]
Maxtor research has determined that 15 sectors is the optimal transfer size
given the current size of the CRC check. The current worst-case limit is
256 sectors. Mark Evans suggested that this information be placed in Annex
C as a recommendation.
Pete McLean agreed to rewrite the proposal as an update to Annex C.
7.5.4 World Wide Name Definition (e02136r1) [Puri]
There was some discussion regarding the naming source. Should we limit the
naming authority to IEEE. In other SCSI documents, ID's 5 and 6 are defined
by IEEE and no other vendor is known to the group. The group agreed that we
would limit the NA to 5. There was discussion about 64-bits vs 128-bits of
GUID. There are applications for 128-bit, but 64-bit is the standard.
Curtis Stevens moved and Gary Laatsch seconded that we incorporate the
proposal with modification agreed during discussion including reserving 4
words in the event that a 128-bit value becomes required and incorporate it
into ATA/ATAPI-7. Motion passed 15-1-1. Ron Roberts commented that SPC-3
and SAS are using a different format that includes a 128-bit format.
7.5.5 ID words for host sector times (e02027r1) [Puri]
Jim Hatfield motioned and Dan Colegrove seconded that we incorporate this
proposal as presented. Motion passed 17-0-0.
7.5.6 WRITE WRONG (e02126r0) [Stevens]
Held over to next meeting.
7.5.7 Use of DSC with PACKET command (e02131r1) [Hatfield]
Held over to next meeting.
7.5.8 Time Limited Read/Write proposal (e02121r1) [Hatfield]
There was discussion regarding this proposal. Dan Colegrove felt there
would be some value in defining a light version of the current command set.
The concern is that the current A/V command set creates a level playing
field. Adopting this proposal might not keep the playing field level.
Curtis Stevens motioned and Marc Noblitt seconded that e02121r1 be
incorporated into ATA/ATAPI-7 as presented. Motion Failed: 1-6-9-4. Roll
Call vote was taken.
Company Voter Vote
Absolute Software Phil Gardner Abstain
Adaptec Ron Roberts Abstain
Apple Larry Barras Abstain
Fujitsu Sumit Puri Abstain
Hitachi Andrew Vuong Abstain
IBM Dan Colegrove No
Intel Michael Eschmann Abstain
LAD Storage Consulting Not present
LSI Logic Tim Thompson Abstain
Maxtor Pete McLean Abstain
Microsoft Not present
Network Appliance Bob Davis No
Pacific Digital Curtis Stevens No
Phoenix Ron Salmon Abstain
Qlogic Arie Krantz No
Seagate Marc Noblitt Yes
Sierra Logic Not present
ST Microelectronics Not present
Toshiba Tasuku Kasebayashi No
Western Digital Darrin Bulik No
7.5.9 ATA/ATAPI-7 change bar review
Performed a change bar review. The editor was instructed to make the changes
requested during the review.
7.5.10 ATA/ATAPI-7 schedule review
Schedule Item Original Prior Current
Project proposal Aug-01 Aug-01 Aug-01
Initial draft Dec-01 Dec-01 Dec-01
Proposal cut-off Jun-02 Jun-02 Jun-02
Stabilized draft Dec-02 Dec-02 Dec-02
Letter ballot Apr-03 Apr-03 Apr-03
Forward to INCITS Jun-03 Jun-03 Jun-03
The group decided that an off-cycle WG to do a line-by-line review should
occur in January. The proposal is for 2 separate sessions: Volume 1 and
Volume 2. This will be scheduled at the December meeting.
7.6 EDD-3 project 1572D [Stevens]
The editor stated that he would have a revised draft of the document for the
December meeting.
7.7 Serial ATA
The chair reported that there were no new activities to report.
7.8 IDEMA A/V working group [Shimizu] (e02139r1)
Ryosuke Shimizu from IDEMA Japan presented his feedback on the A/V command
set. This has been an iterative process. Most of the items present were
acceptance of the capability with some clarifications. IDEMA is asking that
Handle Stream Error (HSE) be made optional for read and write commands.
They have asked that 2 bits be added to IDENTIFY DEVICE, one for read and
one for write.
Curtis Stevens moved and Sumit Puri seconded that we incorporate this
proposal with the changes discussed. Motion Passed: 17-0-0
We discussed doing a technical report that described how to use the A/V
command set. Dan Colegrove agreed to be the editor
7.9 IDEMA A/V working group response to Seagate proposal (e02145r0)
This is a response to e02121r1. IDEMA's main issue with e02131 is that they
want separate read and write Command Completion Time Limits (CCTL). Under
the current proposal, a set features is required to set a global CCTL value
IDEMA stated that they would like to stick with the current ATA/ATAPI-7
definitions.
7.10 T13 Reflector, FTP, and Web Site Setup
People commented that the WEB and FTP sites are working well. Download
speeds are excellent. The chair noted that both he and Dan Colegrove can
post documents to the FTP site, but Dan is the WEB master and is the only
one who can update the WEB page.
There was discussion regarding reorganizing the folders.
7.11 Open issues list
T13 makes new agenda items instead of tracking open issues. This agenda
item will be removed at the next meeting.
8 New Business
8.1 Project proposal for extended cable length technical report ( )
[Stevens]
Curtis Stevens reported that he would have a proposal posted before the
December meeting.
8.2 Modifications to Signal integrity and UDMA implementation guide
annex (e02142r0) [McLean]
This document is mostly editorial changes to add UDMA 133.
Ron Roberts moved and Curtis Stevens seconded that e02142r0 be incorporated
in ATA/ATAPI-7. There was no discussion. Motion Passed 12-0-1.
8.3 IDEMA discussion [Tom Coughlin]
Tom expressed an interest in having IDEMA US work more closely with T13.
There was discussion about liaison reporting for IDEMA. The suggestion was
made that it would help communications if IDEMA provided a one page report
summarizing meetings. In return, T13 would add Tom to the list of people
receiving meeting reports.
Tom expressed an interest in working more closely with CE groups in
standardizing Mass Storage capabilities.
8.4 ATA vs SAS naming
There is currently no definition of the word "host" in ATA/ATAPI-7. The
group agreed that a narrow definition of host which defines as everything on
the other end of the cable that is attached to the drive as the Host.
There was a list of term issues posted to the T13 reflector. The group
decided that other changes are not necessary for ATA/ATAPI-7. Issues will
be addressed as other physical layers are added in future revisions of the
ATA/ATAPI documents.
8.5 PARTIES 48 Bit issue [Salmon]
The current PARTIES standard does not address the 48-bit command set. There
is also a problem with inconsistent Host Protected Area implementations
among drive manufacturers. Dan Colegrove asked that if PARTIES is updated
that a rule be added that forces SETMAX 28-bit for drives that are less than
137GB, even if they implement the 48-bit command set. Jim Hatfield also
brought up issues regarding DCO. Ron Salmon agreed to prepare a project
proposal for a PARTIES-2 standard.
8.6 Short Cable Lengths [Barras]
This was just a discussion. Larry Barras is interested in where the minimum
length cable requirements originated. The minimum length was set to prevent
problems associated with reflection. There is also a maximum distance
between two drives at the end of the cable. This requirement is present to
solve impedance and capacitance issues.
8.7 Clarification of FLUSH CACHE and 48-bit feature-sets [Hatfield]
Jim Hatfield had questions because FLUSH CACHE EXT is mandatory for devices
implementing the 48-bit command set, but it has a separate supported bit.
This bit was added to be consistent with the non-extended flush cache.
8.8 Identifying bad sectors [Roberts]
There is an application involving drives that are mirroring each other. In
this application they want to mark a sector as bad when erroneous data is
returned. They would like to have a way to mark a sector as bad. Sumit
Puri brought up the point that Forced Reallocation is used in SCSI server
applications and that ATA drives are being used more and more in these
applications. Ron Roberts did not know if there was a data miscompare or if
there was a hard error reported.
Ron agreed to go find out more about the issue.
9 Liaison Reports
9.1 T10
The latest T10 liaison report from John Lohmeyer has been posted on the T13
web site as e02143r0. There is now a link in the liaison report to the
meeting minutes.
9.2 SFF
Dan Colegrove reported that SFF will vote in 2 weeks to approve the SAS
connector for 2.5", 3.5", and 5.25" devices. The related documents are
SFF-8223, SFF-8323, SFF-8523.
9.3 IDEMA
IDEMA has a meeting recently where they stated that they wish to become more
involved in T13. They also solicited suggestions on where IDEMA should
become involved. They have a set of minutes that have not been published
where they list the activities reported by the group.
9.4 Serial ATA II
Dan Colegrove reported that the group has not been meeting since the
protocol was released for public review. He does not expect that there will
be additional requests made to T13 based on this review.
10 Call for Patents
The Chair explained the patent policy. A document is available from ANSI,
"Procedures for the Development and Coordination of American National
Standards", at no charge. This document is also on the INCITS web site at
ftp://www.incits.org/help/ansi_sdo.html. Section 1.2.11 contains the ANSI
patent policy. Amy Marasco manages patent issues for ANSI and can be
contacted at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 212-642-4954.
The Chair then called for patents and/or patent applications that may be
necessary to comply with the requirements in T13 standards, draft standards,
technical reports, or draft technical reports.
There was no response to the call for patents.
11 Open Issues List Summary
No items on the list at this time. Since open issues was removed from the
agenda, this items will be removed as well.
12 Review of Action Items
1. Dan Colegrove to provide redefinition for Logical Sector, Physical
Sector, and Sector
2. Dan Colegrove to provide a project proposal for an explanation on
how to use the A/V command set
3. Jim Hatfield to provide a list of documents that define DSC and
SERV.
4. Curtis Stevens to submit a project proposal for an extended cable
length technical report.
5. Curtis Stevens to come forward with a proposal for WRITE WRONG
(e02126r0).
6. Dan Colegrove will post a link to the INCITS project proposal
template
7. Pete McLean to add a definition of "host" to ATA/ATAPI-7
8. Curtis Stevens to create a 1.0 version of 1510d for the letter
ballot
9. Chairman to issue a letter ballot for 1510d
10. Ron Salmon to create a project proposal for a follow-on to PARTIES-2
13 Meeting Schedule
13.1 Authorization of ad hoc working groups
No ad hoc meetings were authorized.
13.2 Long term meeting schedule
The meeting dates, locations, hosts, and contacts were reviewed through
CY2004 (included below).
CY 2002 Dates Location Host Contact
December 17-19, 2002 Irvine, CA Western Digital Darrin Bulik
CY 2003 Dates Location Host Contact
February 18-20, 2003 Irvine, CA Pacific Digital Curtis Stevens
April 22-24, 2003 Longmont, CO Seagate Marc Noblitt
June 24-26, 2003 Irvine, CA Phoenix Ron Salmon
August 19-21, 2003 Longmont, CO Maxtor Pete McLean
October 21-23, 2003 TBD Fujitsu Sumit Puri
December 16-18, 2003 Las Vegas IBM Dan Colegrove
NOTE - Meetings are scheduled for three days only.
CY 2004 Dates Location Host Contact
February 24-26, 2004 San Diego, CA Pacific Digital Curtis Stevens
April 20-22, 2004 Longmont, CO Seagate Jim Hatfield
June 22-24, 2004 Irvine, CA Phoenix Ron Salmon
August 24-26, 2004 Longmont, CO Maxtor Pete McLean
October 19-21, 2004 Las Vegas Fujitsu Sumit Puri
December 14-16, 2004 IBM Dan Colegrove
As noted above the dates of the next plenary meeting of T13 are December 17
through 19. The meeting will be held in Irvine, CA hosted by John Masiewicz
of Western Digital. A host meeting notice will be sent out on the reflector
and will be added to the web site.
The meeting dates were accepted unanimously.
14 Adjournment
The meeting was adjourned by the Chair, Pete McLean, upon completion of all
the agenda items on October 24, 2002 at 10:54am.
