This message is from the T13 list server.
Document Number: T13/e02149r0
Date: 18 December 2002
Reply to: Pete McLean
To: Membership of T13
From: Curtis Stevens, Secretary of T13, and Pete McLean, Chairman of T13
Subject: Minutes of 38th T13 Plenary Meeting at Irvine, CA.
December 17 through 18, 2002
Agenda
1 Opening remarks 2
2 Approval of agenda 2
3 Membership and attendance 2
3.1 Membership 2
3.2 Fees 2
3.3 Attendance 3
4 Approval of the minutes from the previous T13 plenary meeting
(e02134r0) 3
5 Document distribution 3
6 Review of previous action items 4
7 Old business 4
7.1 ATA/ATAPI Host Adapter Standard project 1510D 4
7.1.1 Resolution of letter ballot comments ( ) [Stevens] 4
7.2 ATA/ATAPI-7 project 1532D 4
7.2.1 Long logical sector size proposal (e02132r2) [Colegrove]
4
7.2.2 Burst length for CRC coverage (e02140r0) [McLean] 5
7.2.3 WRITE WRONG (e02126r0) [Stevens] 5
7.2.4 Use of DSC with PACKET command (e02131r1) [Hatfield] 5
7.2.5 ATA/ATAPI-7 change bar review 5
7.2.6 ATA/ATAPI-7 schedule review 5
7.3 EDD-3 project 1572D [Stevens] 5
7.4 Serial ATA 5
7.5 PARTIES-2 [Salmon] 5
7.6 Identifying bad sectors [Roberts] 5
7.7 T13 Reflector, FTP, Web Site Setup, and Mailings 6
8 New Business 6
8.1 A/V Technical Report [Colegrove] 6
8.2 Seagate A/V item [Hatfield] 6
8.3 World Wide Name [Puri] 6
9 Liaison Reports 6
9.1 T10 6
9.2 SFF 6
9.3 IDEMA 6
9.4 Serial ATA II 7
10 Call for Patents 7
11 Action Items 7
12 Meeting Schedule 8
12.1 Authorization of ad hoc working groups 8
12.2 Long term meeting schedule 8
13 Adjournment 8
Results of the Meeting
1 Opening remarks
Pete McLean, the T13 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 A.M. on
Tuesday, December 17, 2002. Pete thanked John Masiewicz and Western Digital
for hosting the meeting.
As is customary, the people in attendance introduced themselves, and a copy
of the attendance list was circulated. Copies of the agenda were made
available to those in attendance.
The Chair briefly reviewed the meeting rules: T13 is a Technical Committee
of INCITS and operates under INCITS rules. Anyone with interest in the work
of the committee is free to attend and take part in discussions. However,
motions and votes are limited to member organizations, one vote per member
organization.
The Chair also noted that T13 operates under the INCITS antitrust
guidelines. There should never be discussion of the following topics at any
INCITS or an INCITS subgroup meeting:
* Any company's prices or pricing policies;
* Specific R&D, sales and marketing plans;
* Any company's confidential product, product development or
production strategies;
* Whether certain suppliers or customers will be served;
* Prices paid to input sources; or
* Complaints about individual firms or other actions that might tend
to hinder a competitor in any market.
Policies and Procedures and antitrust guidelines for INCITS are available at
the web site at www.incits.org. T13 operates under these policies and
procedures augmented by the T13 procedures at the T13 web site at
www.t13.org.
2 Approval of agenda
Dan Colegrove moved and Bob Davis seconded that the agenda be approved as
reflected in these minutes. The motion was approved unanimously.
3 Membership and attendance
The Chair reviewed the rules for membership and attendance:
3.1 Membership
An individual from an organization new to T13 must attend at least one T13
plenary meeting before requesting voting membership. After that meeting,
the representative may request membership from the T13 chair stating
expertise and material interest in the scope of the committee and pay the
required fees to INCITS. Voting privileges begin upon receipt by the INCITS
Secretariat of applicable fees for the membership year.
3.2 Fees
Current INCITS memberships fees for Principal or additional Alternates are
800.00 USD. The First Alternate is free with a Principal membership.
Mailings of committee documents are available to any interested party after
each plenary meeting. The cost for mailings for one year is 300.00 USD for
mailing in the USA and 400.00 USD for mailing to a location outside of the
USA.
Persons with questions or requests regarding membership fees and/or
subscriptions for mailings should contact Parthenia Purnell, ITI Standards
Operations, at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3.3 Attendance
In addition to payment of fees, there are also minimum attendance and
participation requirements to maintain voting membership status on T13. A
representative from a member organization must attend two of every three
plenary meetings and vote on at least every other letter ballot. If a
member organization fails to have a representative in attendance at two of
the last three T13 plenary meetings or vote on every other letter ballot,
they are warned that failing to attend the next T13 meeting or to vote on
the next letter ballot will result in their voting membership being
terminated.
Attendance at a working group meeting does not affect voting membership
status in T13.
Two voting members were in jeopardy due to lack of attendance: Microsoft and
Sierra Logic. Both Microsoft and Sierra Logic were present.
The T13 voting membership during the meeting was 20 organizations.
The number of eligible voting members required for establishing a quorum was
7. 14 member organizations were present at the start of the meeting, thus a
quorum was present.
Vixel was present, has paid fees, and requested membership so the membership
will be 21 members after this meeting.
The following individuals attended:
Phil Gardner Absolute Software Ron Salmon Phoenix
Sumit Puri Fujitsu Arie Krantz Qlogic
Dan Colegrove IBM Jim Hatfield Seagate
Robert Strong Intel Marc Noblitt Seagate
Tim Thompson LSI Logic Bryan Cowger Sierra Logic
Pete McLean Maxtor Hiroshi Suzuki Toshiba
Nathan Obr Microsoft Kenneth Hirata Vixel
Bob Davis Network Appliance Darrin Bulik Western Digital
Curtis Stevens Pacific Digital Steve Finch Western Digital
Tony Goodfellow Pacific Digital John Masiewicz Western Digital
Mukesh Kataria Phoenix
4 Approval of the minutes from the previous T13 plenary meeting
(e02134r0)
Jim Hatfield moved and Darrin Bulik seconded that the minutes of the
previous meeting, e02144r0, be approved as posted. The motion was approved
unanimously.
5 Document distribution
The following documents were distributed either via hard copy, soft copy, or
both:
Agenda and document directory
Long Logical Sector Size (e02132r2)
Project proposal for an AV technical report (e02148r0)
ATA Host Adapter letter ballot comment resolution proposal (e02150r0)
AV Lite presentation (e02147r0)
6 Review of previous action items
1. Dan Colegrove to provide redefinition for Logical Sector, Physical
Sector, and Sector - completed.
2. Dan Colegrove to provide a project proposal for an explanation on
how to use the A/V command set - completed.
3. Jim Hatfield to provide a list of documents that define DSC and SERV
- carry over.
4. Curtis Stevens to submit a project proposal for an extended cable
length technical report - carry over.
5. Curtis Stevens to come forward with a proposal for WRITE WRONG
(e02126r0) - carry over.
6. Dan Colegrove will post a link to the INCITS project proposal
template - carry over.
7. Pete McLean to add a definition of "host" to ATA/ATAPI-7 -
completed.
8. Curtis Stevens to create a 1.0 version of 1510d for the letter
ballot - completed.
9. Chairman to issue a letter ballot for 1510d -completed.
10. Ron Salmon to create a project proposal for a follow-on to PARTIES-2
- carry over.
7 Old business
7.1 ATA/ATAPI Host Adapter Standard project 1510D
7.1.1 Resolution of letter ballot comments ( ) [Stevens]
The letter ballot to forward passed 18:1:0:1. There were some comments to
resolve, these are addressed in e02150r0. Resolution was discussed and
modified.
Marc Noblitt moved and Dan Colegrove seconded that e02150r1, e02150r0 with
suggested modifications, be accepted as the resolution of the letter ballot
results on project 1510D as documented in e02033r0. Phil Gardner requested
separate votes on the resolution of the IBM comments and the Intel comments.
After some discussion involving procedure vote was taken.
Regarding the resolution of the IBM comments the vote was: 15:0:0:5
Regarding the resolution of the Intel comments the vote was: 11:2:1:6
Phil Gardner would like to see Intel revise their comment to be more
constructive.
Now that the letter ballot comments have been resolved, Intel decided to
keep their vote on the proposed standard as no.
The chair was given the action item to forward 1510D to INCITS for further
processing.
7.2 ATA/ATAPI-7 project 1532D
7.2.1 Long logical sector size proposal (e02132r2) [Colegrove]
The group reviewed the changes Dan Colegrove had made in the proposal. The
maximum physical sector size has been expanded from 65KW to approx. 4.3GW
(from a 16 bit field to a 32 bit field). Wording was changed to make it
clear that the logical sector size is only valid when the feature is
implemented. There was concern expressed that this proposal does not allow
sector sizes less that 256 words. Dan agreed to remove this limitation.
There were concerns expressed about using smaller sectors, but the group
agreed to put smaller sector sizes in for completeness. There was some
confusion expressed about the definition of logical and physical sector
sizes. There was also confusion about how the physical sector size proposal
that was already incorporated into ATA/ATAPI-7 relates to this long logical
sector size proposal.
Dan agreed to move the support bits into the area with all the other support
bits. He also agreed to do some figures and examples that make the
relationship of physical and logical sector sizes.
7.2.2 Burst length for CRC coverage (e02140r0) [McLean]
This document is to provide information on the probability of the current
CRC method missing errors. Pete McLean found that when the data gets above
a certain boundary then CRC does not provide any error correction. The
problem is that no one knows the probability of receiving any particular
burst size. Given that you can tell the probability of a CRC covering an
error, but you don't know the probability that a particular burst size will
occur, you are unable to calculate the true probability of failure. Dan
Colegrove suggested that the following statement be added in Annex E. "The
longer the Ultra DMA burst size the greater the likelihood of an undetected
error. Burst lengths longer that 131,072 bytes will increase the probability
of undetected errors above that of ATA/ATAPI-6 and earlier standards."
Tim Thompson moved and John Masiewicz seconded that text provided by Dan
Colegrove be added into Annex E of ATA/ATAPI-7. Motion passed unanimously.
7.2.3 WRITE WRONG (e02126r0) [Stevens]
Carried over to next meeting.
7.2.4 Use of DSC with PACKET command (e02131r1) [Hatfield]
Carried over to next meeting.
7.2.5 ATA/ATAPI-7 change bar review
The committee performed the change-bar review.
7.2.6 ATA/ATAPI-7 schedule review
Schedule Item Original Prior Current
Project proposal Aug-01 Aug-01 Aug-01
Initial draft Dec-01 Dec-01 Dec-01
Proposal cut-off Jun-02 Jun-02 Jun-02
Stabilized draft Dec-02 Dec-02 Dec-02
Letter ballot Apr-03 Apr-03 Apr-03
Forward to INCITS Jun-03 Jun-03 Jun-03
The group discussed the effect of adding Serial ATA to the project. It was
suggested that the above schedule may slip by 6 months starting from the
stabilized draft. This will move the Stabilized draft to Jun-03, Letter
Ballot to Oct-03, and forwarding to INCITS to Dec-03. The decision to modify
the schedule was delayed till February when the impact of Serial ATA can be
better assessed.
7.3 EDD-3 project 1572D [Stevens]
Carried over to next meeting.
7.4 Serial ATA
The chair reported that the Serial ATA working group had offered to turn
over the Serial ATA 1.0 specification to T13 for inclusion in ATA/ATAPI-7 as
soon as possible if T13 would accept it. Pete McLean commented that he felt
it would be in the best interest of the T13 group to include the SATA
specification into the standard ASAP. There was some discussion on the
options. There are 2 main choices: Start a new project, or include SATA in
the existing ATA/ATAPI-7. Bob Davis moved and Marc Noblitt seconded that we
include SATA 1.0 into ATA/ATAPI-7. Discussion on the motion followed. Dan
Colegrove commented that it would help if the principle architects of SATA
were present at the meetings. Motion Passed 14:0:0
7.5 PARTIES-2 [Salmon]
Carried over to next meeting
7.6 Identifying bad sectors [Roberts]
Ron Roberts was not present. The item was carried over to the next meeting.
7.7 T13 Reflector, FTP, Web Site Setup, and Mailings
Several people commented that the reflector and WEB site are working well.
There was significant discussion regarding the T13 mailing. There is a
concern that the distribution is not happening.
8 New Business
8.1 A/V Technical Report [Colegrove]
Although this project proposal has not yet been available 2 weeks (does not
meet the 2 week rule), a review was performed. Dan Colegrove will revise
this proposal for presentation at the next meeting.
8.2 Seagate A/V item [Hatfield]
Marc Noblitt presented a proposal for A/V Lite. This proposal uses existing
commands to enable streaming. There is a set features to enable the
capability. When A/V Lite is enabled READ, WRITE and FLUSH CACHE change the
way they function to enable streaming. Although no new commands are
created, a timeout timer is required in order to maintain guaranteed
delivery times. There was some discussion on the difference between having
the timer in the drive versus using the host to do a timeout. The issue
with host-generated timeouts is that the recovery process can be lengthy.
There was also some discussion on demand for this capability. Seagate
expressed that Toshiba and Matsushita had both requested an A/V Lite
implementation. Although there have been presentations on this method at
previous meetings, there was considerable discussion on the technical
capabilities of this proposal.
Curtis Stevens moved and Tim Thompson seconded that we reconsider the
inclusion of A/V Lite (e02121r2) into ATA/ATAPI-7. Motion passed 10:2:2
Curtis Stevens moved and Tim Thompson seconded that we incorporate e02121r2
into ATA/ATAPI-7. There was discussion regarding procedure, but no real
discussion on the content of the proposal. Motion passed 11:3:1
All 3 no voters commented that the no vote was because they do not want 2
standard methods for A/V streaming.
8.3 World Wide Name [Puri]
There was a concern expressed to Sumit regarding our WWN format. The
question is if it should be big endian or little endian. The group decided
that the WWN fields were numbered incorrectly in the table and revised.
9 Liaison Reports
9.1 T10
The latest T10 liaison report from John Lohmeyer has been posted on the T13
web site as e02143r0. There is now a link in the liaison report to the
meeting minutes.
9.2 SFF
SFF is currently developing the connector for Serial Attached SCSI (SAS).
We need to make sure that our SATA connector work in synchronized with SFF.
9.3 IDEMA
IDEMA had a working group to promote the introduction of 4k sector size.
IDEMA is working on a formula for calculating drive sizes. The letter
ballot for this formula closes on 20-DEC-02. Dan Colegrove will ask IDEMA
to make a report on their meeting activities for the next T13 meeting in
February.
9.4 Serial ATA II
The SATA organization is requesting changes to the DCO command. We will
receive more information at the February meeting.
10 Call for Patents
The Chair explained the patent policy. A document is available from ANSI,
"Procedures for the Development and Coordination of American National
Standards", at no charge. This document is also on the INCITS web site at
ftp://www.incits.org/help/ansi_sdo.html. Section 1.2.11 contains the ANSI
patent policy. Amy Marasco manages patent issues for ANSI and can be
contacted at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 212-642-4954.
The Chair then called for patents and/or patent applications that may be
necessary to comply with the requirements in T13 standards, draft standards,
technical reports, or draft technical reports.
There was no response to the call for patents.
11 Action Items
1. Pete McLean to inform the Serial ATA committee that T13 has
agreed to incorporate the SATA specification into ATA/ATAPI-7.
2. Dan Colegrove will check the status of the CD mailings with
INCITS.
3. Dan Colegrove will revise e02148r0 based on feedback from
the current meeting.
4. Curtis Stevens to turn a new revision of EDD-3.
5. Dan Colegrove to turn a new revision of Larger Physical
Sector Size.
6. Dan Colegrove to contact IDEMA and ask them to provide a
summary of meeting activities for next T13 meeting.
7. Curtis Stevens to turn a new rev of 1510d as r1.
8. The chair to forward 1510dr1 to INCITS.
9. Jim Hatfield to provide a list of documents that define DSC
and SERV.
10. Curtis Stevens to submit a project proposal for an extended
cable length technical report.
11. Curtis Stevens to come forward with a proposal for WRITE
WRONG (e02126r0).
12. Dan Colegrove to post a link to the INCITS project proposal
template.
13. Ron Salmon to create a project proposal for a follow-on to
PARTIES-2
12 Meeting Schedule
12.1 Authorization of ad hoc working groups
12.2 Long term meeting schedule
The meeting dates, locations, hosts, and contacts were reviewed through
CY2004 (included below). Note that the location of the June 2003 meeting has
been moved from Irvine to San Jose.
CY 2003 Dates Location Host Contact
February 18-20, 2003 Irvine, CA Pacific Digital Curtis Stevens
April 22-24, 2003 Longmont, CO Seagate Marc Noblitt
June 24-26, 2003 San Jose, CA Phoenix Ron Salmon
August 19-21, 2003 Longmont, CO Maxtor Pete McLean
October 21-23, 2003 TBD Fujitsu Sumit Puri
December 16-18, 2003 Las Vegas IBM Dan Colegrove
CY 2004 Dates Location Host Contact
February 24-26, 2004 San Diego, CA Pacific Digital Curtis Stevens
April 20-22, 2004 Longmont, CO Seagate Jim Hatfield
June 22-24, 2004 Irvine, CA Phoenix Ron Salmon
August 24-26, 2004 Longmont, CO Maxtor Pete McLean
October 19-21, 2004 Las Vegas Fujitsu Sumit Puri
December 14-16, 2004 IBM Dan Colegrove
NOTE - Meetings are scheduled for three days.
As noted above the dates of the next plenary meeting of T13 are February 18
through 20, 2003. The meeting will be held in Irvine, CA hosted by Curtis
Stevens of Pacific Digital. A host meeting notice will be sent out on the
reflector and will be added to the web site.
13 Adjournment
Dan Colegrove moved and Sumit Puri seconded that the meeting be adjourned on
December 18 , 2002 at 10:54am.
