This message is from the T13 list server.
Document Number: T13/e03101r0
Date: 20 February 2003
Reply to: Pete McLean
To: Membership of T13
From: Curtis Stevens, Secretary of T13, and Pete McLean, Chairman of T13
Subject: Minutes of 39th T13 Plenary Meeting at Irvine, CA.
February 18 through 20, 2003
Agenda
1 Opening remarks 2
2 Approval of agenda 2
3 Membership and attendance 2
3.1 Membership 2
3.2 Fees 2
3.3 Attendance 3
4 Approval of the minutes from the previous T13 plenary meeting
(e02149r0) 3
5 Document distribution 3
6 Review of previous action items 4
7 Old business 4
7.1 1394 to AT Attachment - Tailgate maintenance (ANSI NCITS 316-1998)
4
7.2 ATA/ATAPI-4 maintenance (ANSI NCITS 317-1998) 5
7.3 ATA/ATAPI Host Adapter Standard project 1510D (ANSI INCITS 370-200x)
Status 6
7.4 ATA/ATAPI-7 project 1532D 6
7.4.1 New Editor 6
7.4.2 Long logical sector size proposal (e02132r2) [Colegrove]
6
7.4.3 WRITE WRONG (e02126r0) [Stevens] 6
7.4.4 Use of DSC with PACKET command (e02131r1) [Hatfield] 7
7.4.5 Volume 3 review 7
7.4.6 Volume 1 and 2 change bar review 7
7.4.7 ATA/ATAPI-7 schedule review 7
7.5 EDD-3 project 1572D [Stevens] 7
7.6 PARTIES-2 [Kataria] 7
7.7 Identifying bad sectors [Roberts] 8
7.8 ATA/ATAPI AV Streaming Command Set Usage Guideline (e02148r1)
[Colegrove] 8
7.9 T13 Reflector, FTP, Web Site Setup, and Mailings 8
8 New Business 8
8.1 IDEMA Japan presentation ( ) [Fuchigami] 8
8.2 Updating Device Configuration Overlay ( ) [Colegrove] 9
9 Liaison Reports 9
9.1 T10 9
9.2 SFF 9
9.3 IDEMA 9
9.4 Serial ATA II 9
10 Call for Patents 9
11 Action Items 10
12 Meeting Schedule 10
12.1 Authorization of ad hoc working groups 10
12.2 Long term meeting schedule 10
13 Adjournment 10
Results of the Meeting
1 Opening remarks
Pete McLean, the T13 Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 A.M. on
Tuesday, February 18, 2003. Pete thanked Curtis Stevens and Pacific Digital
for hosting the meeting.
As is customary, the people in attendance introduced themselves, and a copy
of the attendance list was circulated. Copies of the agenda were made
available to those in attendance.
The Chair briefly reviewed the meeting rules: T13 is a Technical Committee
of INCITS and operates under INCITS rules. Anyone with interest in the work
of the committee is free to attend and take part in discussions. However,
motions and votes are limited to member organizations, one vote per member
organization.
The Chair also noted that T13 operates under the INCITS antitrust
guidelines. There should never be discussion of the following topics at any
INCITS or an INCITS subgroup meeting:
* Any company's prices or pricing policies;
* Specific R&D, sales and marketing plans;
* Any company's confidential product, product development or
production strategies;
* Whether certain suppliers or customers will be served;
* Prices paid to input sources; or
* Complaints about individual firms or other actions that might tend
to hinder a competitor in any market.
Policies and Procedures and antitrust guidelines for INCITS are available at
the web site at www.incits.org. T13 operates under these policies and
procedures augmented by the T13 procedures at the T13 web site at
www.t13.org.
2 Approval of agenda
Jim Hatfield moved and Curtis Stevens seconded that the agenda be approved
as reflected in these minutes. The motion was approved unanimously.
3 Membership and attendance
The Chair reviewed the rules for membership and attendance:
3.1 Membership
An individual from an organization new to T13 must attend at least one T13
plenary meeting before requesting voting membership. After that meeting,
the representative may request membership from the T13 chair stating
expertise and material interest in the scope of the committee and pay the
required fees to INCITS. The time when membership becomes effective has
just changed. Membership now becomes effective at the start of the next
meeting the organization attends assuming the organization attends one of
the next two meetings.
3.2 Fees
Current INCITS memberships fees for Principal or additional Alternates are
800.00 USD. The First Alternate is free with a Principal membership.
Mailings of committee documents are available to any interested party after
each plenary meeting. The cost for mailings for one year is 300.00 USD for
mailing in the USA and 400.00 USD for mailing to a location outside of the
USA.
Persons with questions or requests regarding membership fees and/or
subscriptions for mailings should contact Parthenia Purnell, ITI Standards
Operations, at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3.3 Attendance
In addition to payment of fees, there are also minimum attendance and
participation requirements to maintain voting membership status on T13. A
representative from a member organization must attend two of every three
plenary meetings and vote on at least every other letter ballot. If a
member organization fails to have a representative in attendance at two of
the last three T13 plenary meetings or vote on every other letter ballot,
they are warned that failing to attend the next T13 meeting or to vote on
the next letter ballot will result in their voting membership being
terminated.
Attendance at a working group meeting does not affect voting membership
status in T13.
Two voting members were in jeopardy due to lack of attendance: Microsoft and
LAD Storage Consulting. Microsoft was present. LAD Storage Consulting was
not present and lost its voting membership.
The T13 voting membership during the meeting was 20 organizations.
The number of eligible voting members required for establishing a quorum was
seven. Fourteen member organizations were present at the start of the
meeting, thus a quorum was present.
The following individuals attended:
Phil Gardner Absolute Software Craig Stuber Petalynx
Ron Roberts Adaptec Mukesh Kataria Phoenix
Sumit Puri Fujitsu Arie Krantz QLogic
Steven Fairchild HP Jim Hatfield Seagate
Dan Colegrove Hitachi Global Storage Tech Bryan Cowger Sierra Logic
Robert Strong Intel Shoji Fuchigami Sony
Pete McLean Maxtor Hiroshi Suzuki Toshiba
Nathan Obr Microsoft Kenneth Hirata Vixel
Bob Davis Network Appliance Darrin Bulik Western Digital
Curtis Stevens Pacific Digital John Masiewicz Western Digital
Ryosuke Shimizu Panasonic Jim Wilshire Western Digital
4 Approval of the minutes from the previous T13 plenary meeting
(e02149r0)
Curtis Stevens moved and Jim Hatfield seconded that the minutes of the
previous meeting, e02149r0, be approved as posted. The motion was approved
unanimously.
5 Document distribution
The following documents were distributed either via hard copy, soft copy, or
both:
Agenda and document directory
Project proposal for an AV technical report (e02148r1)
Letter from the Serial ATA consortium (e03104r0)
Serial ATA 1.0a specification (e03105r0)
Serial ATA errata 41 (e03106r0)
Presentation on PARTIES-2 (e03106r0)
PARTIES-2 project proposal (e03107r0)
IDEMA Japan AV Lite comparisons (e03108r0)
WRITE WRONG proposal (e02126r1)
ATA/ATAPI-7 revision 2 volumes 1, 2, and 3
6 Review of previous action items
1. Pete McLean to inform the Serial ATA committee that T13 has
agreed to incorporate the SATA specification into ATA/ATAPI-7 - Completed.
2. Dan Colegrove will check the status of the CD mailings with
INCITS - Completed.
3. Dan Colegrove will revise e02148r0 based on feedback from
the current meeting - Completed.
4. Curtis Stevens to turn a new revision of EDD-3 - Carry Over.
5. Dan Colegrove to turn a new revision of Larger Physical
Sector Size - Carry Over.
6. Dan Colegrove to contact IDEMA and ask them to provide a
summary of meeting activities for next T13 meeting - Completed.
7. Curtis Stevens to turn a new rev of 1510d as r1 - Completed.
8. The chair to forward 1510dr1 to INCITS - Completed.
9. Jim Hatfield to provide a list of documents that define DSC
and SERV - Overcome by events.
10. Curtis Stevens to submit a project proposal for an extended
cable length technical report - Carry Over.
11. Curtis Stevens to come forward with a proposal for WRITE
WRONG (e02126r0) - Completed.
12. Dan Colegrove to post a link to the INCITS project proposal
template - Completed.
13. Mukesh Kataria to create a project proposal for a follow-on
to PARTIES-2 - Completed.
7 Old business
7.1 1394 to AT Attachment - Tailgate maintenance (ANSI NCITS 316-1998)
The chair announced that the 1394 to AT Attachment - Tailgate standard must
be reaffirmed, revised, or withdrawn this year. INCITS has notified the
chair that T13 must have its recommendation to INCITS by 1 April.
Curtis Stevens moved and Ron Roberts seconded that T13 recommend to INCITS
that NCITS 316-1998 be withdrawn as a standard. Concern was expressed that
there was currently very little support for this specification and that it
could mislead people into thinking that there was support. There was also
discussion about posting the withdrawal notice to T10 and 1394 TA
reflectors. This decision could be reversed at the next meeting, but no
later. A roll call vote was taken. Motion passed: 14-0-0-6
Company Voter Yes No Abstain Not Present
Absolute Software Phil Gardner X
Adaptec Ron Roberts X
Apple X
Fujitsu X
Hitachi X
IBM X
Intel Robert Strong X
LSI Logic X
Maxtor Pete McLean X
Microsoft Nathan Obr X
Network Appliance Bob Davis X
Pacific Digital Curtis Stevens X
Phoenix Mukesh Kataria X
QLogic Arie Krantz X
Seagate Jim Hatfield X
Sierra Logic Bryan Cowger X
ST Microeletronics X
Toshiba Hiroshi Suzuki X
Vixel Kenneth Hirata X
Western Digital John Masiewicz X
7.2 ATA/ATAPI-4 maintenance (ANSI NCITS 317-1998)
The chair announced that the ATA/ATAPI-4 standard must be reaffirmed,
revised, or withdrawn this year. INCITS has notified the chair that T13 must
have its recommendation to INCITS by 1 April.
Bob Davis noted that if we renew this standard we could change its status to
a stabilized standard. A stabilized standard is automatically renewed if
there is no action from the parent committee. The possibility of revising
the standard and possibly including only the obsoleted fields was also
discussed. There was concern expressed that this would only propagate the
issue that obsolescence was trying to address.
Bob Davis moved and Ron Roberts seconded that T13 recommend to INCITS that
ATA/ATAPI-4 be reaffirmed. There was no discussion. Motion passed:
14-0-0-6
Company Voter Yes No Abstain Not Present
Absolute Software Phil Gardner X
Adaptec Ron Roberts X
Apple X
Fujitsu X
Hitachi X
IBM X
Intel Robert Strong X
LSI Logic X
Maxtor Pete McLean X
Microsoft Nathan Obr X
Network Appliance Bob Davis X
Pacific Digital Curtis Stevens X
Phoenix Mukesh Kataria X
QLogic Arie Krantz X
Seagate Jim Hatfield X
Sierra Logic Bryan Cowger X
ST Microeletronics X
Toshiba Hiroshi Suzuki X
Vixel Kenneth Hirata X
Western Digital John Masiewicz X
7.3 ATA/ATAPI Host Adapter Standard project 1510D (ANSI INCITS 370-200x)
Status
The chair announced that Curtis Stevens turned ATA/ATAPI Host Adapter
d1510r1 and that the chair forwarded the draft standard to INCITS for first
public review. It has been assigned BSR number ANSI INCITS 370-200x and is
in public review closing 17 March 2003.
7.4 ATA/ATAPI-7 project 1532D
7.4.1 New Editor
There are currently 3 volunteers: John Masiewicz, Jim Hatfield, and Ron
Roberts. John mentioned that it would be fun. Ron mentioned that he had
edited other ANSI standards and his boss told him to. Jim Hatfield said he
wanted to make a greater contribution to the group.
Curtis suggested that the decision be made at the next meeting since we will
have a better idea of who the chair will be. Bob Davis confirmed that this
would be proper INCITS procedure. Pete McLean said that if this was our
decision he would make the changes discussed at this meeting and any working
groups that meet between now and then he would make the changes and make the
documents available to the new editor.
We discussed the possibility of a WG meeting the first week of March. The
group agreed the first week of March would be best. John Masiewicz agreed
to host in Irvine.
Pete McLean appointed Curtis Stevens as a neutral party to turn the rev of
ATA/ATAPI-7 at the next meeting.
7.4.2 Long logical sector size proposal (e02132r2) [Colegrove]
The item was postponed till next meeting since a new revision of the
proposal was not available.
7.4.3 WRITE WRONG (e02126r0) [Stevens]
Curtis Stevens presented the Write Wrong proposal for a new command. The
purpose of this command is to mark sectors as bad so that on subsequent
reads an error is generated. This allows host software vendors to test
their error handling. Ron Roberts presented a request from Adaptec for
supporting RAID rebuild. If a sector is bad on the source volume, Adaptec
would like to mark the sector as bad on the destination drive as well.
There was discussion on the implications of this proposal. Drive
manufacturers are concerned that this capability could be misused to cause
warranty returns on disk drives.
Clarification was requested on the error behavior during the various READ
commands after a WRITE WRONG has been issued. These include documentation
that the UNCORRECTABLE ERROR bit is set what the read error is encountered,
whether or not the error logs are updated, and the behavior of SMART in
relation to these errors.
There was also a request for a SET FEATURES command to enable this
capability. After some discussion, a few people thought that DCO may be
better.
Discussion will continue at the next meeting
7.4.4 Use of DSC with PACKET command (e02131r1) [Hatfield]
The proposer asked that this agenda item be removed from future agenda
7.4.5 Volume 3 review
Pete McLean presented an overview of SATA as he has currently integrated it
into ATA/ATAPI-7 volume 3. The draft was reviewed at a high level discussing
how it may be reorganized for better clarity. It was agreed that no changes
would be made after this meeting but that a working group meeting would be
scheduled before the next plenary to further work on this draft.
7.4.6 Volume 1 and 2 change bar review
It was agreed to postpone review of volumes 1 and 2 until more work is
completed on volume 3.
7.4.7 ATA/ATAPI-7 schedule review
The schedule was discussed but it was agreed to wait to modify the schedule
until the April plenary.
Schedule Item Original Prior Current
Project proposal Aug-01 Aug-01 Aug-01
Initial draft Dec-01 Dec-01 Dec-01
Proposal cut-off Jun-02 Jun-02 Jun-02
Stabilized draft Dec-02 Dec-02 Dec-02
Letter ballot Apr-03 Apr-03 Apr-03
Forward to INCITS Jun-03 Jun-03 Jun-03
7.5 EDD-3 project 1572D [Stevens]
This item was postponed until the next plenary when a new draft is
available.
7.6 PARTIES-2 [Kataria]
Mukesh Kataria presented what he would like to do as e03106r0 for PARTIES-2.
Phoenix recommends the following:
1. If the 48-bit command set is supported, the host should use
48-bit SETMAX
2. If the 48-bit SETMAX command fails, then host software
should use the 28-bit SETMAX
The ATA/ATAPI-6,7 are not clear on what constitutes elimination of the HPA.
There are several scenarios that can lead to unclear results.
Although the project proposal has not met the 2-week rule and could not be
voted on at this meeting, the group reviewed what was presented in
e03107r0.doc. Changes were recommended and Mukesh agreed to post a new
revision in time for it to be voted on at the April plenary.
7.7 Identifying bad sectors [Roberts]
This item was postponed until the next meeting since no document was
available.
7.8 ATA/ATAPI AV Streaming Command Set Usage Guideline (e02148r1)
[Colegrove]
Reviewed project proposal.
Curtis Stevens moved and Sumit Puri seconded that T13 accept this project
proposal as modified (e02148r2) and that the chair forward it to INCITS for
processing. Motion Passed 15-0-0-5
7.9 T13 Reflector, FTP, Web Site Setup, and Mailings
Discussed the name of the group, T13 IO Interface - AT Attachment
Bob Davis moved and Curtis Stevens seconded that the name of our group be
changed to "ATA Storage Interface". Motion passed unanimously
Bob Davis talked about a service that INCITS is considering for technical
committees. This new service would be to provide a Projector, wireless hub,
Screen, power strips, etc. Are there issues about receiving capitol
equipment, tracking it through receiving and then shipping it to the next
guy. It would be possible to ship to and from the hotel and possibly bypass
the corporate aspect.
Discussed the concept of using a wireless network for document distribution.
The main issue is security. Wireless exposes each machine. Is that an
acceptable risk.
Curtis Stevens asked for a straw poll on if people would use a wireless LAN.
14 would participate, 3 would not.
Pete McLean asked for a straw poll to determine if ITIC provided equipment
should be used by T13. 7 People felt that we should not participate, 9
people felt we should. One concern on the no vote side is the
responsibility for the equipment.
Dan Colegrove asked for a straw poll on the number of people already enabled
with 802.11b. 15 people indicated yes, 1 person indicated no.
We had a discussion on our telephone conference policy. The results were
inconclusive.
8 New Business
8.1 IDEMA Japan presentation ( ) [Fuchigami]
Tom Coughlin (IDEMA US) listened to the presentation via conference phone.
IDEMA Japan presented their case for removing AV-Lite from ATA/ATAPI-7.
Their claim is that the current Streaming Feature Set provides all the
functionality of AV-Lite, making AV-Lite both redundant and confusing. They
also claim that there are error cases that are not well defined with
AC-Lite. These claims were supported by a feature comparison between
AV-Lite and the Streaming Feature Set (e03108r0). Mr. Fuchigami presented
marketing data that shows PVR technology has advanced to the point that
AV-Lite will not support the required capabilities.
Discussion followed the presentation. Darrin Bulik expressed that in his
latest trip to Japan that there was confusion amongst the people he talked
with regarding what drive vendors would actually supply and what the roadmap
would be. Mr. Suzuki of Toshiba, and Sumit Puri from Fujitsu agreed with
Darrin.
Tom Coughlin reported that IDEMA US is also planning to discuss the issue at
their March meeting.
The group agreed that this should be kept on the agenda under ATA/ATAPI-7 so
members can continue to research their positions.
8.2 Updating Device Configuration Overlay ( ) [Colegrove]
New capabilities added in ATA/ATAPI-7 include A/V, 48-bit, UDMA-133,
Selective Self Test, Forced Unit Access and World Wide Names. Do we need to
update DCO to include some of these new capabilities.
Changes would be incorporated into ATA/ATAPI-7 and would require a two
thirds vote.
9 Liaison Reports
9.1 T10
The latest T10 liaison report from John Lohmeyer has been posted on the T13
web site as e03102r0.
9.2 SFF
The SFF committee is working on SFF-8221, a form factor for 2.5" server SAS
drives. We will probably need to document the SATA version of the
connectors in our standard.
There is a WG attempting to define a single voltage supply for disk drives.
Next meeting is March 18th in Dallas. www.sffcommittee.com
<http://www.sffcommittee.com>.
SFF is asking if SATA drive manufacturers are using the 3.3v supply.
9.3 IDEMA
1) IDEMA Disk drive CE technical group formed. Co-chairs Maurice
Schlumberger from Maxtor and Tom Coughlin from Coughlin Associates.
2) AV benchmarking activity begun. Committee members from major disk
drive companies identified. Meetings with AV CE disk drive
users/customers planned.
3) Presentation by iVDR representative made regarding working with IDEMA
on reviewing iVDR media and interface standards. iVDR would like to work
with IDEMA regarding publicizing and creating a broader forum for
discussion of these standards.
Thomas M. Coughlin
(408) 202-5098 (cell)
(408) 978-8184 (office)
9.4 Serial ATA II
Nothing to report.
10 Call for Patents
The Chair explained the patent policy. A document is available from ANSI,
"Procedures for the Development and Coordination of American National
Standards", at no charge. This document is also on the INCITS web site at
ftp://www.incits.org/help/ansi_sdo.html. Section 1.2.11 contains the ANSI
patent policy. Amy Marasco manages patent issues for ANSI and can be
contacted at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 212-642-4954.
The Chair then called for patents and/or patent applications that may be
necessary to comply with the requirements in T13 standards, draft standards,
technical reports, or draft technical reports.
There was no response to the call for patents.
11 Action Items
1. The Chair will forward recommendation to INCITS that NCITS
316-1998 be withdrawn.
2. The Chair will forward recommendation to INCITS that NCITS
317-1998 be reaffirmed.
3. Mukesh Kataria to come forward with a document for inclusion
into ATA/ATAPI-7 that better defines how the HPA is manipulated.
4. The Chair will forward project proposal e02148r2 to INCITS
for processing.
5. The Chair will inform INCITS and provide liaison reports
that indicate the name of T13 is changing to ATA Storage Interface.
6. Steve Fairchild will bring in a list of features that need
to be added to DCO for ATA/ATAPI-7.
7. Pete McLean will notify Knut Grimsrud of the WG that was
approved for 4-5 March.
8. Pete McLean to create a text version of the table of
contents (e03110r0) for volume 3.
9. Curtis Stevens to post a notice to the reflector on
information for the 4-5 March WG.
14. Curtis Stevens to turn a new revision of EDD-3.
15. Dan Colegrove to turn a new revision of Larger Physical
Sector Size.
16. Curtis Stevens to submit a project proposal for an extended
cable length technical report.
17. Mukesh Kataria to create a new revision of the project
proposal for PARTIES-2.
12 Meeting Schedule
12.1 Authorization of ad hoc working groups
Curtis Stevens moved and Sumit Puri seconded that we authorize an ad hoc
meeting 4-5 March 9AM to 5PM on both days in Irvine, CA hosted by Pacific
Digital to perform a detailed review of ATA/ATAPI-7 with SATA included.
Motion passed 13-0-0-7.
12.2 Long term meeting schedule
The meeting dates, locations, hosts, and contacts were reviewed through
CY2004 (included below).
CY 2003 Dates Location Host Contact
April 22-24, 2003 Longmont, CO Seagate Jim Hatfield
June 24-26, 2003 San Jose, CA Phoenix Mukesh Kataria
August 19-21, 2003 Longmont, CO Maxtor TBD
October 21-23, 2003 TBD Fujitsu Sumit Puri
December 16-18, 2003 Las Vegas Hitachi Global Dan Colegrove
CY 2004 Dates Location Host Contact
February 24-26, 2004 San Diego, CA Pacific Digital Curtis Stevens
April 20-22, 2004 Longmont, CO Seagate Jim Hatfield
June 22-24, 2004 Irvine, CA Phoenix Mukesh Kataria
August 24-26, 2004 Longmont, CO Maxtor TBD
October 19-21, 2004 Las Vegas Fujitsu Sumit Puri
December 14-16, 2004 TBD Hitachi Global Dan Colegrove
NOTE - Meetings are scheduled for three days.
As noted above the dates of the next plenary meeting of T13 are April 22
through 24, 2003. The meeting will be held in Longmont, CO hosted by Jim
Hatfield of Seagate Technology. A host meeting notice will be sent out on
the reflector and will be added to the web site.
13 Adjournment
Curtis Stevens moved and John Masiewicz seconded that the meeting be
adjourned on February 20, 2003 at 12:04pm
