Milos, With all due respect to all the work Gerard has done, my issue with him is simple (should be apparent by now), he approved EA based on a mail exchange he had with only one committee member, painted that in a public email as a unanimous decision, and it turned out that 4 of his committee members were inactive at the time and at least one (I have not heard from the others yet) had at least some issues with the decision. I will be completely satisfied with a simple acknowledgment that the process was faulty, and that he is willing to work to rectify it for the future, as of now, I only see that he sees absolutely nothing wrong with what happened. I just want to see a clear path for that not to happen again in LangCom, I have been encouraged by Jesse's comments, but they still remain pretty much in contrast with the position Gerard maintains.
On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Milos Rancic <[email protected]> wrote: > On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 3:27 AM, Marcus Buck <[email protected]> wrote: > > elisabeth bauer hett schreven: > >> 2009/1/11 Marcus Buck <[email protected]>: > >> > >> > >>> In the Arabic world there's a prevalent POV, that Arabs form one nation > >>> united by the use of the Arabic language. But in reality Standard > Arabic > >>> is something like Latin. With the difference, that Latin fell out of > use > >>> to make place for the Romance languages. So Egyptian Arabic vs. > Standard > >>> Arabic is like French vs. Latin. And the Egyptian VIP is like a 13th > >>> century monk. "Writing in the language of the people. How stupid... > >>> Latin is a godly language." > >>> > >> > >> So, tell me... > >> Which language do the egyptian newspapers use? > >> In which language are the egyptian books written? > >> Which language does Naguib Mahfus use in his books? > >> Which language do the children learn at school? > >> Which language do you use in a letter when you apply for a job? > >> > >> greetings, > >> elian > > The answer to all of this is: Standard Arabic. That's exactly what I was > > pointing at. There's a strong non-conscious POV forcing the people to > > use a language for writing, that is very different from their native > > language. What language do most Mari use, when writing to other Mari? > > Russian. Aymara will most likely use Spanish when writing to other > > Aymara. Does that mean, that Mari is a dialect of Russian and Aymara a > > dialect of Spanish? Of course not. But it's a symptom of a very deeply > > internalized feeling of inferiority. A feeling spurred by Russian and > > Spanish speakers feeling superiority over those uneducated non Spanish > > speakers and non Russian speakers. > > > > A 13th century monk would have argued: > > > > Which language do the Royal chronicles use? > > In which language is the Vulgata written? > > Which language does Francis of Assisi use in his books? > > Which language do the novices learn at monastery school? > > Which language do you use in a letter when you petition to the > sovereign's court? > > > > > > The use of Latin restricted knowledge to those who were educated in the > > monasteries. The dismissal of Latin was an act of emancipation for the > > speakers of the vernaculars. I do not know enough about Arabic to judge > > whether pushing the vernaculars would be an act of intellectual > > emancipation or an act of divide et impera. > > > > If the idea of writing in the vernacular would be obviously ridiculous, > > nobody would do it. There are people who want to work on arz, so they > > must see some use in it. Maybe they are still wrong. We can only figure > > it out, if we allow them to try. > > > > By the way: You mention schools. When schools became mandatory in the > > course of the 18th, 19th century, many people had humanistic and > > educational goals. But from the very beginning it was also a tool for > > the country's rulers to manipulate the brains of young people. To induce > > attachment to the king and to prepare boys to be good soldiers. To make > > the children loyal citizens. That's still valid today. Language is one > > measure of bending the pupils' mind (of bending all people's minds). By > > teaching the national language, that in many cases is different from the > > native language, you estalish a direct channel to the mind. This channel > > is in the sole occupancy of the authorities and there's no need to share > > it with other information transmitters, cause the native environment > > uses another language (at least that was true in the time, when schools > > became mandatory. Today there are more diverse information channels). > > Language is a tool of power. That's the reason, why VIPs are no good > > source for opinions about languages not supported by the powers in > > force. Somebody who is Very Important has to stay in touch with the > > powers in force to keep being important. Touching the balance of power > > by supporting languages other than the language of power is dangerous if > > you have to keep a status. > > The mission of the foundation is an educational one. So it would be > > better to ask the uneducated masses of Egypt, whether they feel a gain > > from a Wikipedia in their language or whether they stick with the > > "Latin" Wikipedia. > > First of all, I may sign every Marcus' word in this and previous email. > > There is one more issue which I mentioned in the previous iteration > related to EA [Sports]. Having education in the native language is a > very important cultural achievement. Instead between 1/4 and 1/5 of > inhabitants who don't know to read and write you [Egyptians etc.] will > have much better ratio. Besides examples which I gave the last time, > here are two more: one of the poorest countries in Europe, Albania, > with relative majority of Muslim inhabitants, has 98.7% of literate > people; not so rich Azerbaijan (yes, it could be much richer) with > 90%+ Muslim majority has 98.8% of literate people. This is something > less than 1/100 of inhabitants who don't know to read and write. In > both of countries Arabic is a language for religious purposes, while > native languages are educational. More educated persons means more > intellectual power, which gives more political influence. Power of > European countries before the Renaissance was silly in comparison with > China (which solved educational problems at other way, not applicable > to phonographic writing systems) and civilizations under Chinese > influence (like Mongols, Tatars and Turks were). Instead of opposing > EA and similar projects, educated Egyptians (and other educated Arabs) > should learn from European history (but, please, avoid the first half > of 20th century!). > > And about life and work of Gerard Meijssen... Along with Jesse, Gerard > is the most responsible person for the fact that Language subcommittee > is working. Before asking to remove him from the subcommittee, I would > like to see a proposal for a member which would have comparably > similar characteristics: > > * A high level of enthusiasm for Wikimedian projects and involvement in > them. > * At least one significant project (cf. OmegaWiki). > * At least 6 months of active work in Language subcommittee. > > Otherwise, we may close the shop. > > To be more precise, here are things which none of others would do: > > * Implementing transparency by archiving emails at the public place. > Along with other technical issues which make LangCom to look like the > most regulated (sub)committee, this is done by Jesse and I can't > imagine someone else who would do that. While I think that > transparency and look and feel are important, for that kind of job I > would have to be payed (actually, I wouldn't accept such job, even it > is payed). > * Raising attention around boring issues around languages by using > variety of methods (blogging, writing projects, talking with a lot of > people...). This is done by Gerard and I really can't imagine someone > else at that position. Even I am 10 years or so younger than Gerard, I > have a very small part of his energy. And he is interested in > languages. > > Both of them are doing those jobs for years. It is not about temporary > enthusiasm. > > At the other side, of course, I am one of not so big number of persons > who has the honor to know very well how hard is to work with Gerard. > But, his willingness to change some positions (slowly but surely) is > good enough in conjunction with his other qualities. In other words, I > would like to be able to fly, but I am not. I would like to see > perfect persons at the right positions, but it is far from reality. > > Out of the issue related to Gerard personally, I want to say that this > objection (and the previous one) to Language subcommittee's work is > the most articulated one. Because of that I think that we may have > some benefits from it. For example, I would like to hear a generic > solution for cases like EA is (here, at the list, or at Meta). > Personally, I would like to see more articulated community's opinion > toward issues related to languages. > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Best Regards, Muhammad Alsebaey _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
