Mensaje citado por [email protected]: > Send foundation-l mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of foundation-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Michael Bimmler) > 2. Re: Re-licensing (George Herbert) > 3. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Thomas Dalton) > 4. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Erik Moeller) > 5. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Ziko van Dijk) > 6. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Delphine M?nard) > 7. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Thomas Dalton) > 8. Re: Re-licensing (Thomas Dalton) > 9. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Brian) > 10. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Delphine M?nard) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:11:20 +0100 > From: Michael Bimmler <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Brian <[email protected]> wrote: > >Quit calling us > > trolls, crackpots and kooks and simply address the matters in a factual way. > > > Here's a suggestion for everyone: Stop the allusions to conspiracies > ("tax-deductible money shifted to for-profit companies") *and* stop > the name-calling. > > M. > -- > Michael Bimmler > [email protected] > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:13:05 -0800 > From: George Herbert <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re-licensing > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Thomas Dalton <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > I'm sorry, Thomas, but until people learn to use jurisprudential > > > concepts such as "moral rights" properly, I have a moral obligation to > > > point out where they are used mistakenly. This is not a question of > > > "the world outside the legal profession" (and, indeed, if you were a > > > member of the legal profession -- or a philosopher -- you wouldn't > > > make the mistake of supposing this). Philosophy of law is accessible > > > to people who aren't lawyers -- even you. But it's clear that the word > > > "moral rights" is being thrown around here by people who are only > > > casually familiar with the concept. When you have actually given some > > > study to jurisprudential philosophers (see, e.g., H.L.A. Hart and Lon > > > Fuller) and can offer some more sophisticated philosophical analysis > > > than you offer here, I will be able to take your pronunciamentos more > > > seriously. > > > > Where do you think laws come from? Do you think they appear from > > nowhere? They are created by politicians (and sometimes judges) based > > on moral values. Those moral values imply certain moral rights whether > > they are written down in statute (or case law) or not. > > > > Used relative to copyright law, the term unambiguously means what Mike is > saying, the rights that Europe (and others) have assigned to actual authors > distinct from copyright owners etc. > > The specific term as used in copyright law (as Mike says, a "term of the > art" in that field) has no legal utility in the United States, as those > rights in question are not acknowledged by US copyright law or precedent. > > This is a discussion about copyright law and licenses under / related to it, > is it not? And not philosophy writ large? > > > There was a slight danger in the Foundation chosing to hire Mike as counsel, > that he has a long-established tendency to poke fun at people ( cf. Godwin's > Law, and more long painful Usenet discussions from 20 plus years ago than I > care to remember at the moment...). This is going over rather badly with > some people's sense of moral indignation over licensing and copyright > issues. > HI, I AM NEW IN ALL THIS THING, PLEASE I NEED ALL OF YOU HELP ME.I AM CUBAN, > AND MY ENGLISH, IS NOT VERY GOOD,SO PLEASE SEND ME THE MESSAGES IN SPANISH, SO I CAN UNDERSTAND YOU.
> -- > -george william herbert > [email protected] > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:13:23 +0000 > From: Thomas Dalton <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > 2009/1/23 Erik Moeller <[email protected]>: > > 2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton <[email protected]>: > >>. Did you consider the PR cost when weighing it all up? > > > > Of course. It's a normal transaction and any noise about it is likely > > going to be ephemeral. We will continue to calmly and sensibly explain > > it to reasonable people, and that's all there is to it. > > Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How > did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in > Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept > that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.) > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:20:10 -0800 > From: Erik Moeller <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > 2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton <[email protected]>: > > Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How > > did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in > > Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept > > that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.) > > I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use, > shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other > space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two > other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in > the same building. > -- > Erik M?ller > Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation > > Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:46:23 +0100 > From: Ziko van Dijk <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > 2009/1/23 Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]> > > > > > > The natural state of these discussions is that there are always people > > pissing in the wind. That spoils things somewhat. > > > > Hear hear, true words in a typical Dutch wording. :-) > I am amazed about the transparency and openess the staff members are giving > here, and I am looking forward to the results of these splendid work > conditions. > > Kind regards > Ziko > > > "Wer durch des Argwohns Brille schaut, > sieht Raupen selbst im Sauerkraut." > Wilhelm Busch > > -- > Ziko van Dijk > NL-Silvolde > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:13:44 +0100 > From: Delphine M?nard <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 20:53, Brian <[email protected]> wrote: > > I'm glad someone is concerned about this issue. Wikia has always smacked of > > "they wouldn't let us show ads on Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit > > branch of Wikipedia with ads." There are potential conflicts of interest at > > nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia relationship. > > I never thought I would say what comes next. > As much as I have been a fierce defender of a clear cut between Wikia > and Wikimedia, I must admit that I find this solution to be one of the > best things that has happened to the usability project. > > About space: been there, and yes, Wikia's headquarters are a street > away, so really easy to plan meetings and make sure things happen in > coordinated fashion between the Wikimedia office and the Usability > project. > > About working near Wikia: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the > biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion, > probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a > way that makes sense for the users. They already have a pretty big > developper team, and having them at hand will definitely broaden the > usability project vision on what a wiki can/should do to be more user > friendly. > > Who more than a commercial user of Mediawiki has an interest in its > evolution _for the best_ of users? > > I see absolutely no conflict of interest. Where? Seriously? Wikia is > renting walls, tables and chairs to the Wikimedia Foundation, that's > all. And on top of that, they bring to the coffee machine talks tons > of ideas and experience in the daily use of the software. > > And frankly, without this thread, everyone would have forgotten the > move two days from now and seen nothing in it. Gee, it's time to grow > up and stop seeing the cabal everywhere. > > Cheers, > > Delphine > -- > ~notafish > > NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get > lost. > Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:16:45 +0000 > From: Thomas Dalton <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > 2009/1/23 Erik Moeller <[email protected]>: > > 2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton <[email protected]>: > >> Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How > >> did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in > >> Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept > >> that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.) > > > > I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use, > > shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other > > space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two > > other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in > > the same building. > > I was looking for something a little more quantitative. I know it is > difficult to quantify these things, which is why, in my experience, > charities usually err on the side of caution. In fact, the model > governing documents for the UK Charities Commission explicitly forbids > any such dealings with companies that share directors with the charity > (I'm not sure the law requires such strict rules, but they are > certainly recommended). > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:18:57 +0000 > From: Thomas Dalton <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re-licensing > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > 2009/1/23 George Herbert <[email protected]>: > > This is a discussion about copyright law and licenses under / related to it, > > is it not? And not philosophy writ large? > > It was, I think we drifted a little off-topic. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:35:20 -0700 > From: Brian <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > This time next year I have no doubt Wikipedia will be much more usable. > Delphine, this sentence is the first time I have ever typed the word > 'cabal'. > > I do hope people continue to express concern about the Wikipedia/Wikia > relationship. The existence of Wikia doesn't make a whole lot of sense, > except the $$$ kind. > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Delphine M?nard <[email protected]>wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 20:53, Brian <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I'm glad someone is concerned about this issue. Wikia has always smacked > > of > > > "they wouldn't let us show ads on Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit > > > branch of Wikipedia with ads." There are potential conflicts of interest > > at > > > nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia relationship. > > > > I never thought I would say what comes next. > > As much as I have been a fierce defender of a clear cut between Wikia > > and Wikimedia, I must admit that I find this solution to be one of the > > best things that has happened to the usability project. > > > > About space: been there, and yes, Wikia's headquarters are a street > > away, so really easy to plan meetings and make sure things happen in > > coordinated fashion between the Wikimedia office and the Usability > > project. > > > > About working near Wikia: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the > > biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion, > > probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a > > way that makes sense for the users. They already have a pretty big > > developper team, and having them at hand will definitely broaden the > > usability project vision on what a wiki can/should do to be more user > > friendly. > > > > Who more than a commercial user of Mediawiki has an interest in its > > evolution _for the best_ of users? > > > > I see absolutely no conflict of interest. Where? Seriously? Wikia is > > renting walls, tables and chairs to the Wikimedia Foundation, that's > > all. And on top of that, they bring to the coffee machine talks tons > > of ideas and experience in the daily use of the software. > > > > And frankly, without this thread, everyone would have forgotten the > > move two days from now and seen nothing in it. Gee, it's time to grow > > up and stop seeing the cabal everywhere. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Delphine > > -- > > ~notafish > > > > NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get > > lost. > > Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > foundation-l mailing list > > [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:08:36 +0100 > From: Delphine M?nard <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 00:35, Brian <[email protected]> wrote: > > This time next year I have no doubt Wikipedia will be much more usable. > > Delphine, this sentence is the first time I have ever typed the word > > 'cabal'. > > :D > > To be fair, I didn't so mean the word cabal for your intervention as > for other interventions in this thread, but yours was the shortest to > answer to :P > > > I do hope people continue to express concern about the Wikipedia/Wikia > > relationship. The existence of Wikia doesn't make a whole lot of sense, > > except the $$$ kind. > > Yes, as I pointed out, I am the first to have been concerned and I > will be again when there is reason to be. I firmly believe this > renting of offices isn't a reason. > > Cheers, > > Delphine > -- > ~notafish > > NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get > lost. > Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > foundation-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > > End of foundation-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 130 > ********************************************* > ------------------------------ Infomed - Red de Salud de Cuba http://www.sld.cu/ --------------------------------------- Red Telematica de Salud - Cuba CNICM - Infomed _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
