On Feb 14, 2008, at 12:05 PM, Martin Aspeli wrote:
I still don't think this makes any sense.

hi martin,

since you've sent that mail to: me and i'm also the spokesperson of the framework team, i'll try to respond to a few bits. i don't really want to repeat everything i've said before, though, except for one point: i've merely _assumed_ the schedule would be shifted by two weeks, i.e. the time the bundle reviews were late (or, are going to be, hopefully...).

that "less than one week" time span between the end of the reviews and the tagging of the first alpha has been like this from the start, and ultimately people seemed fine with it. i know there's also been a discussion back then, and i do agree with you that it leaves only very little time for you (PLIP authors), but blaming the framework team for this doesn't seem right imo. the team surely is to blame for other things, but it didn't set or change the schedule, except for prolonging the review period, of course.

If you want to have
everything *merged* by Friday the 22nd, then you (Wichert) will have
to start doing those merges way before then.

this is just a minor detail (and not to suggest there is enough time), but i'd like to add that the code was supposed to be tagged next friday, and the actual release was planned for monday. so the merging wouldn't have to take place before then. i've translated "pre-release tagged" into "alpha freeze" when putting up the calendar, which might be misleading. sorry about that.

For the record, no-one's told me anything about my five
bundles.There's been no centralised, proper communication with PLIP
authors. Unless they are vigilant and watch Subversion and Trac for
notes the trickle in at a random intervals, they are unlikely to have
realised if they need to react.

well, i guess the attempt to centralise things using trac tickets was maybe not such a good idea after all. the idea was in fact to make it easier for authors to keep track of things, but that was assuming everybody had filled in their email address to receive trac notifications (or was using rss), of course. i had tried to make sure all authors were cc'ed on the tickets, which is likely to be the reason why they were cc'ed way too little on the mails sent to the list. so yes, you're right about a lack of direct communication with the authors, and i apologize for being too ignorant about people like you, who wouldn't want to receive tons of trac mails.

The Framework Team needs to bear some responsibility for the quality
of the release, and that includes setting realistic expectations of
PLIP authors. It also includes giving clear communication about what
those expecations are, and taking into account that people will be
doing this work in their spare time, with other time pressures.

i agree, except that i didn't think this also includes changing the schedule. i was under the impression his was the job of the release manager, but maybe there's been some misunderstanding here.

For example, if you'd met you original deadline, I would've had more
time, since that deadline was set at a more advantageous date. Right
now, I'm exhausted and fed up.

i'm sorry about that, but i guess taking all author's personal schedules into account isn't really possible either. like i said, the time span between reviews and tagging is still the same, and the original schedule might also have worked worse (or better) for some of you. btw, i'm not particularly happy about the delay and the amount of additional work it creates...

It leaves a really bad taste in my mouth that we have these
discussions at nearly every single deadline we set.

same here, except i wasn't involved in as many as you, of course. but may i point out that i think the problem in this particular case was probably that the initial discussion about the timeline imo never really reached a consensus? so, with the ambitious timeline set, it was more or less bound to resurface again, no? not to complain, though, just another thing we should try to do better next time...

What if I'm busy
this Sunday - potentially the *one* non-work day you give authors to
react to the final reviews? It's the first weekend since the PSPS. The
deadline recently slipped with lacklustre communication as to why,
when the new deadline was, whether it was being adhered to and what
would happen next. You are expecting PLIP implementers to be just
sitting by ready to jump when you manage to get the reviews done.
That's in no way fair.

yes, our deadline slipped and communication bad, to say the least, but again, i don't think this really changed things for the PLIP authors. the problem lies in the original schedule, and the team didn't set that. however, this is not to blame wichert, though. we were all aiming for a very short cycle, and i think he just tried to make it as short as possible. as it seems we might not have given it enough thought, but like godefroid said, it's okay to fail — the important bit is to take in into account next time...

that said, i'd like to state that i'd be in favour of shifting the alpha (and everything else) another week to allow more time to respond and fix things. so i hanno, if i may say so — he's sitting next to me (sound asleep atm :)), but we've been discussing the schedule and the release process in general for most of yesterday's afternoon.

I am pretty sure I'm not
the only one who hasn't been planning my life around a slipped review

no, you're certainly not.



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