Martin Aspeli wrote:
- z3c.form produces very awful HTML

Does that apply to the general case, or only to the case of nested structures like this?

The markup of the widgets I've seen has generally been pretty good. I think we need a much richer, mainly JavaScript-driven and probably less generalised widget for the "grid" use case anyway.

- z3c.form produces very confusing user interfaces

Again, I think that applies to

- z3c.form documentation is indeed incomplete (no mention of
   ObjectFactory)

It's certainly better than formlibs. ;-)

- z3c.form you can do cool stuff with it, although I am not convinced
   it is much better than hand-coding the form

One of the reasons we had a woefully incomplete Plone control panel and relied on the ZMI for far too much up until Plone 3 was that no-one likes or bothers with hand-coding forms for things like that. The same goes for content add/edit menus and anything else that is largely schema driven. There's definitely a place for hand-coded forms, but it's not a panacea either.

And the reason I cc'ed the framework team: I strongly feel that until the generated markup and user interfaces from z3c.form are improved to meet Plone standards Plone itself should start using it.

I think you're over-generalising. The output of a z3c.form form is not any worse than what we have with formlib or Archetypes (in fact, it's probably better, and it's certainly easier to standardise). There may be reasons for and against z3c.form, and the complex nested forms stuff is probably not quite mature, but it's not any less mature than it is in anything else.

There is another important factor too: z3c.form is seeing active development and has a committed maintainer, who cares about compatibility with Plone. I'm sure he'd appreciate patches and constructive feedback, rather than negative generalisations.

I don't think anyone's yet built a good composite form solution. I suspect that z3c.form at least has the power to let you do so in a way that's going to end up being usable by mere mortals, even if it errs a little on the side of generalisation in providing hooks to those solving that rather complex use case.

Martin

--
Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who
want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book


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